Considering a trade "up". Opinions?

[thinwing]

Hey nice photo...and I dont think a low approach constitutes a "buzz job"especially over a 6000 ft runway.It looks like bank angle is maybe 30 degrees ,so I wouldnt be too hard on your "mechanic" especially if he was making the proper traffic calls during his low approach...this is basically typical flyin /airshow stuff.Last year at the Porterville airshow /flyin they had a guy with a radar gun measuring speeds of a couple hopped up rvs,a mooney bravo etc.Looked just like that and nobody even quivered.PS the mooney Bravo took the prize..180kts or so....good luck with the new bird...if you are like me,when the kids grow up and are on their own you will be happy to be back with the lower cost to maintain Mooney..kpc

[The-sky-captain]

I have a buddy that bought a Matrix new in 2011 and its a sweet machine. A friend of mine sells them out of Kansas City and said that around 40k per year should be reserved for upkeep and maintainence. That combined w fuel, insurance and a hanger is a little more that I can justify at this time. Not sure if the older Malibu's would be cheaper or not.

[fantom]

A friend of mine sells them out of Kansas City and said that around 40k per year should be reserved for upkeep and maintainence.

Maybe for a new one with warranty, and sales people are usually optimistic on maintenance estimates. On a good used one, you'll be lucky at $50K a year, plus debt service

[carusoam]

Those numbers make an M20C sound delicious...

-a-

[Hank]

Amen, brother!!

[Seth]

I completely agree - The Missile is the most bang for the buck speed wise (180+ knots) and is quite a machine (that being said, a C, E, or F model may be the most bang for buck flying machine value wise. Speed vs Dollar vs capability)

When you make your upgrade - stay on the board as there are only Three Missile drivers/owners here right now and dealing with specific problems, it's nice to have Missile drivers as well as the still small group but more numerous Rocket drivers (Erik for example)

That being said, I too think it is crazy to think about leaving behind an aircraft like the Missile. I plan to keep mine forever. However, at this time I do not have a family of my own with growing children and the space issue is a non-issue. The Malibu is a great plane - despite the engine failure rate and costs - but what about when you just want to go flying? Or take only two or one on a trip?

I've decided that when the time comes, I'm going to try to figure out a way to always keep my Mooney, and own a part of another true traveling machine. Maybe a small group or partnership with some like minded pilots who just don't need the larger transportation aircraft and costs for many trips. As you know, it all depends on your mission.

The way I look at it, those belonging to such a group may all be owners of their own aircraft and simply share the more expensive people/distance machine. If you keep your Mooney and buy 1/3 or 1/5 of another plane, with like minded owners, then you can fly yours at a lower cost per hour for many missions, but when taking the entire family use the shared aircraft. It's an idea.

The Malibu is a great plane, and frankly, for hauling the family at Missile speed or better you could look at a lot of aircraft including but not limited to:

Singles:

-Malibu

-Meridian

-Malibu Projet conversion

-TBM 700

-Bonanza Turbine Conversion (no pressurization - I think)

-NO C-210 - you said you did not want this

Twins:

-Seneca (not pressurized)

-Cessna pressurized twins 340, 414, 421

-MU-2

-Early King Air 90

-Piper Cheyenne

-Turbo Commander (nice spread in Flying Nov Edition)

-Citation 500SP or 1SP

-Aerostar

At some point and I know some others saw my idea a long time ago I'm going to put together a group to own a T-6, Citabria, maybe a 182 (just because it's a great all around airplane) and some sort of distance and pressurized aircraft

A Mooney pilot I know locally flies a C414 for work and uses his Mooney less and less now as he has really gotten used ot the pressurization. Pressurization adds a lot of cost but is fantastic for fatigue.

Good luck and let us know what the finalists are when the time comes.

-Seth

[231flyer]

I have owned my 231 since 1992 and sprang for the Eclipse Jet in 1998 (#31). Unfortunately I lived through the whole Eclipse saga (VFR, Non FIKI jet with Engine issues) and finally pulled the plug(sold at a major loss) in 2010 after the bankruptcy. I bought my Malibu Mirage (PA46-350P) in July 2010 and I have been quite satisfied. My girls are 12 and 15 (10 and 13 then) and both the 231 and my Lancair IVP were getting quite cramped. The Mirage actually has more room than the Eclipse and the interior furnishings are nice. Its a solid IFR platform and very easy to fly (landings are easier to grease than the Mooney). I can count on 200 KTAS (the book says 215) on 21 gph in the flt levels with a realistic range of 1000 KNM plus comfortable IFR reserves (140 gal extended tanks). Although not as fast as my Lancair or the VLJ I find the utility to be quite high for my type of family flying. My girls are happy to stay on board for 4 hrs (it does have a pee-tube for emergencies) and we just flew all over Alaska this summer. I mostly fly within Texas or to our house in the Colorado mountains (GNB elv 8200) and the Mirage handles elevations and shorter fields (3000 ft) with ease. Annuals have averaged around $2000 (owner assist) and insurance was way lower than I expected after my VLJ experience. I am happy with the Mirage experience while I wait for my DiamondJet

[John Pursell]

A couple of things. I've heard that if you contact MMOPA, they'll let you on the forums for a month free. You have to ask though. Second, Kevin Mead is on the POA boards. He is the Don Maxwell of the 3 M's. I'd ask him directly about the plane. He has countered some of the misconceptions about the 10% number. The skinny is that most of the failures were early in the planes history. The last thing is that for all intent, you're maintaining a twin. It has FIKI, twin turbos, twin intercoolers, pressurization and one more expensive engine. Of course, it costs more. Expect to have to go to a formal school for insurance. There are some guys that will come to you or there are simulator schools.

I have no experience flying one. It's only what I have read.

[Cabanaboy]

What is the annual upkeep and maintenance cost on your Mirage? How could it cost 40K per years per previous post???

The-Sky-Captain:

"Kansas City and said that around 40k per year should be reserved for upkeep and maintenance"

I have owned my 231 since 1992 and sprang for the Eclipse Jet in 1998 (#31). Unfortunately I lived through the whole Eclipse saga (VFR, Non FIKI jet with Engine issues) and finally pulled the plug(sold at a major loss) in 2010 after the bankruptcy. I bought my Malibu Mirage (PA46-350P) in July 2010 and I have been quite satisfied. My girls are 12 and 15 (10 and 13 then) and both the 231 and my Lancair IVP were getting quite cramped. The Mirage actually has more room than the Eclipse and the interior furnishings are nice. Its a solid IFR platform and very easy to fly (landings are easier to grease than the Mooney). I can count on 200 KTAS (the book says 215) on 21 gph in the flt levels with a realistic range of 1000 KNM plus comfortable IFR reserves (140 gal extended tanks). Although not as fast as my Lancair or the VLJ I find the utility to be quite high for my type of family flying. My girls are happy to stay on board for 4 hrs (it does have a pee-tube for emergencies) and we just flew all over Alaska this summer. I mostly fly within Texas or to our house in the Colorado mountains (GNB elv 8200) and the Mirage handles elevations and shorter fields (3000 ft) with ease. Annuals have averaged around $2000 (owner assist) and insurance was way lower than I expected after my VLJ experience. I am happy with the Mirage experience while I wait for my DiamondJet

[AndyFromCB]

I can see 40k, to properly maintain a bravo or acclaim flown 200 hours a year, eats about 15k if you add it all up. It's just that a lot of airplanes aren't or the owners do a lot work themselves. I don't have the time anymore.

Proper ff reserve is about 10k a year at 200 hours. I'm looking at another 9k this year alone to clean up my landing gear. The little steering horn alone is 1600. These things do wear out.

[231flyer]

Annual Costs for PA-46-350P

Hangar $5000

Insurance $5000

Annual (owner assist) $2000

Maintenance/Squak fix $6000

Subscriptions $2500

Gas/Oil (200 hrs) $5000

Engine Reserves $6000

Maintenance Reserve $5000

Annual Costs: $26.5K + $11k (Reserves)

Close to the $40k discussed above.

[ChristianGodin]

My partner in our mooney has a Mirage 2010.. It is a big step up from the mooney. 200$ per month is really under estimated but it is the natural step up after our mooney. Next is a turbine. He (my partner) is looking to trade it for a Pilatus. Make sence to me... I will appreciated it. Especially because I will fly that next step up without having to spend a whole lot for it...

Go for the next step...

[AndyFromCB]

Annual Costs for PA-46-350P

Hangar $5000

Insurance $5000

Annual (owner assist) $2000

Maintenance/Squak fix $6000

Subscriptions $2500

Gas/Oil (200 hrs) $5000

Engine Reserves $6000

Maintenance Reserve $5000

Annual Costs: $26.5K + $11k (Reserves)

Close to the $40k discussed above.

I actually think it's a bit low, for 200 hours per year, you gas bill should be closer to $25K. Plus your Engine/FF forward reserve is a bit low, too. At 200 hours, it should be closer 9500. It's a 65K engine, plus I added 30K for propeller, exhaust, two turbos and RR labor.

My Bravo breaks down to the following, flown 200 hours per year:

Hangar $1500

Insurance $2000

Annual $2500

Maintenance Labor $4000

Subscriptions $1500

Gas/Oil (200 hrs) $25000

Engine Reserves $7500

Parts Reserve $4000

So Bravo is about $48K per year flown at 200 hours. Havening have just about restored one to brand new condition and looking over the logbooks, I can attest that the above numbers are correct for 200 hours flown per year. Everybody underestimates the engine reserves because it's not just the engine but also everything else firewall forward that adds up to half the engine cost like exhaust, turbo, controllers and RR labor. I cannot imagine a Mirage would be that much more but for me the initial price of entry was 4x higher. Really, there is only two maintenance areas in a Mirage according to my research that are much more expensive than a Bravo: heated windshield and hydro pack.

My parts reserve might be a bit high but then I don't think so, a KFC 150 servo or a KI256 going haywire just about gets you there. I think Mooney was a great name for an airplane, just take out one 'O' ;-)

[Geoff]

If you are considering the twin route don't forget about the Aerostar!

[carusoam]

Spectacular!!!

Going to need that lotto ticket again...

-a-