FIKI vs non-FIKI TKS

[bd32322]

I was searching the forum for the difference between FIKI and non-FIKI TKS installations. Its pretty clear that the FIKI installation has dual pumps. However, its not o clear whether the panels are the same. I see some posts mentioning that the FIKI panels have more holes per sq. inch but some others mentioning that they both should be the same. So are the panels the same?

Also is there supposed to be a flow rate difference with 2 pums versus 1 in the non-FIKI installation?

Thanks

[carusoam]

Look for additional back-up for the electrical system such as dual alternators. I believe they have been covered here somewhere...

Also be looking for which air frames can accept the various systems...

Not much help, but hope that helps get you going in the right direction this morning...

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

I did this research when I bought my Bravo. For all intents and purposes, the panel coverage and fluid flow is identical between FIKI and non-FIKI birds. I measured with a tape. At least on my non-FIKI Bravo vs a FIKI M20R I was looking at buying. I decided that the turbo is worth considerably more to me when dealing with mid-west icing than FIKI paperwork.

Also, you don't get the heated stall warning with the non-FIKI install but if you're depending on the stall warning in icing, you're already deeper than I'd ever want to be.

BTW, TKS works great, when primed. Landed in Des Moines last winter with an inch of ice on the wingtips without a trace anywhere else. All and all it took about 15 minutes for the 1inch to accumulate. The king air that followed me in looked like an icicle. That was the only time I used the system.

Also, I'd keep my landing lights off for as long as possible, otherwise you end up getting nice 4 inch wide area of runback on the wings behind the lights. Let some accumulate, then flip them on to heat the lens, then turn back off really quickly when the chunk falls off.

[gsengle]

I did this research when I bought my Bravo. For all intents and purposes, the panel coverage and fluid flow is identical between FIKI and non-FIKI birds. I measured with a tape. At least on my non-FIKI Bravo vs a FIKI M20R I was looking at buying. I decided that the turbo is worth considerably more to me when dealing with mid-west icing than FIKI paperwork.

Also, you don't get the heated stall warning with the non-FIKI install but if you're depending on the stall warning in icing, you're already deeper than I'd ever want to be.

BTW, TKS works great, when primed. Landed in Des Moines last winter with an inch of ice on the wingtips without a trace anywhere else. All and all it took about 15 minutes for the 1inch to accumulate. The king air that followed me in looked like an icicle. That was the only time I used the system.

Also, I'd keep my landing lights off for as long as possible, otherwise you end up getting nice 4 inch wide area of runback on the wings behind the lights. Let some accumulate, then flip them on to heat the lens, then turn back off really quickly when the chunk falls off.

I believe the FIKI install has dual alternators, dual batt, dual fluid pumps, fluid for all leading edges, pilot windshield and slinger ring for prop, ice light on pilot side and heated pitot tube and heated stall warning. Not sure how much of that you get in non FIKI installs.

One downside to installing LED landing lights is that there isnt heat generated from the LEDs that will melt ice; I dont think this is an aerodynamic issue as its a pretty small patch, but I suppose could be an issue with landing in icing conditions at night (a place I hope never to be).

Greg

[David Mazer]

Somewhere in a recent post, there was a description that FIKI installations had a cut out for the landing light even on the M20K installation that wasn't on the inadvertent version. On a model with wing lights, not possible to use the panels without the cutout. On models without the wing light, the inadvertent system has slightly better coverage but no second pump or heated stall warning. I'mot sure about the other differences.

[bd32322]

I believe the FIKI install has dual alternators, dual batt, dual fluid pumps, fluid for all leading edges, pilot windshield and slinger ring for prop, ice light on pilot side and heated pitot tube and heated stall warning. Not sure how much of that you get in non FIKI installs.

One downside to installing LED landing lights is that there isnt heat generated from the LEDs that will melt ice; I dont think this is an aerodynamic issue as its a pretty small patch, but I suppose could be an issue with landing in icing conditions at night (a place I hope never to be).

Greg

Most 252s will have the dual alternator I think, before they even install TKS. Rockets will have a large capacity extra battery. Those are the two I am looking at upgrading to for now. Same with the Bravo too I think. I dont see much value in the heated stall warning. And the pitot is heated anyway.

What happens to fuel vents - are they heated in the 252/231/Bravo/Rocket or are they designed so that they do not ice up and block fuel flow?

[AndyFromCB]

I believe the FIKI install has dual alternators, dual batt, dual fluid pumps, fluid for all leading edges, pilot windshield and slinger ring for prop, ice light on pilot side and heated pitot tube and heated stall warning. Not sure how much of that you get in non FIKI installs.

One downside to installing LED landing lights is that there isnt heat generated from the LEDs that will melt ice; I dont think this is an aerodynamic issue as its a pretty small patch, but I suppose could be an issue with landing in icing conditions at night (a place I hope never to be).

Greg

My non-FIKI installation is missing the following: a second main pump, second windshield pump. Everything else, panels, windshield spray, prop slinger is the same on the Bravo FIKI vs non-FIKI.

Mine has the cut outs for the landing lights/taxi lights. I replaced my landing lights with LED and kept my regular taxi lights in order to be able to shed ice built up with heat.

The lack of a second pump is not a big deal in my book. You have to prime the system on the ground anyway if you're departing into potential ice. Your total exposure to icing will be about 4 minutes during a climb, at least where and when I fly. I don't take off into a frontal condition. En route, icing isn't an issue in a Bravo, at least never for more than 15 minutes or so, and you'll have to prime again to cross any front at FL200 so you can verify the system is working again. Never seen a front wider than 50 miles or so and the goal is to cross at 90 degrees and fly behind it. If it's not working, you'll have to turn around. Even it it's working, if the clouds are up to FL200 in the winter, you might reconsider, land and wait for it to blow over.

On the approach is where the second pump would come in handy, but once again, overrated. By the time you'd notice one pump failed, most likely the system would be useless for next 15 minutes anyway while it tries to shed existing ice after you'd flip the pump switch. It's painful to watch TKS trying to shed existing ice, even a thin layer. It's a anti-ice system, not a de-ice system. One thing to note to existing boot drivers, boots work better the higher the speed. TKS just the opposite, if it's becoming overwhelmed, slow down. You'll get more concentrated mixture of alcohol and moisture.

That's my take on FIKI vs non-FIKI.

[jlunseth]

Another difference between FIKI and non-FIKI is the FIKI part. There are lots of times we can't depart around here because there is a freezing layer. It does not need to be very thick, if there is ice. Not legal to fly through that layer.

The redundant systems are the primary difference between FIKI and non-FIKI.

[gsengle]

Another difference between FIKI and non-FIKI is the FIKI part. There are lots of times we can't depart around here because there is a freezing layer. It does not need to be very thick, if there is ice. Not legal to fly through that layer.

The redundant systems are the primary difference between FIKI and non-FIKI.

So now, speaking strictly legally; my understanding is that currently the FAA considers it known ice when there is any visible moisture and below freezing temperature - i.e. clouds/IMC and below freezing. This basically means in the north, during the winter months, there no legal IMC without FIKI, even to pop through a layer. Legally speaking. Operationally I wouldn't personally have used TKS any differently if I were not FIKI, I try and stay out of any anticipated icing... but it happens... Mine is FIKI, so I know I'm legal.

g

[AndyFromCB]

So now, speaking strictly legally; my understanding is that currently the FAA considers it known ice when there is any visible moisture and below freezing temperature - i.e. clouds/IMC and below freezing. This basically means in the north, during the winter months, there no legal IMC without FIKI, even to pop through a layer. Legally speaking. Operationally I wouldn't personally have used TKS any differently if I were not FIKI, I try and stay out of any anticipated icing... but it happens... Mine is FIKI, so I know I'm legal.

g

Correct on all the points, gsengle. My few encounters with ice in my Arrow and then my TKS mooney have me convinced it's just best to stay out of the stuff all together. Hence my preference for the turbo. As to departing IMC below freezing, i've done it before in a Arrow, I'll do it in a Mooney, TKS or or no TKS. I will not depart into a frontal conditions, but I have no problems zoom climbing thru a 3000 foot layer, even in the arrow exposure time was less than 2 minutes from 140knots indicated to 80knots on top of the climb.

[kortopates]

So now, speaking strictly legally; my understanding is that currently the FAA considers it known ice when there is any visible moisture and below freezing temperature - i.e. clouds/IMC and below freezing. This basically means in the north, during the winter months, there no legal IMC without FIKI, even to pop through a layer. Legally speaking. Operationally I wouldn't personally have used TKS any differently if I were not FIKI, I try and stay out of any anticipated icing... but it happens... Mine is FIKI, so I know I'm legal.g

For a brief period that was true, but since Jan 16, 2009, the FAA Chief Counsel provided legal interpretation to AOPA that corrected the interpretation you quoted and brought reason and good aeronautical decision making back into the process. It says in part "Rather than specifically defining "known Ice", the FAA defines "known or observed or detected ice accretion" in the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM). In paragraph 7-1-22 of that manual the agency defines "known or observed or detected ice accretion" as "actual ice observed visually to be on the aircraft by the flight crew or indentified by on-board sensors". Actual adhesion to the aircraft, rather than existence of potential icing conditions, is the determinative factor in this definition....." It then goes on to give advice on how to assess the icing conditions by examining available data and concludes with "If the composite of information indicates to a reasonable and prudent pilot that he or she will be operating the aircraft under conditions that will cause ice to adhere to the aircraft along the proposed route and altitude of flight, then known icing conditions likely exist. If the pilot operates the aircraft in known icing conditions contrary to the requirements of 91.9(a), the FAA may take enforcement action….”I’d post a link to the actual interpretation but just have a PDF copy of it handy.

[KSMooniac]

Most 252s will have the dual alternator I think, before they even install TKS. Rockets will have a large capacity extra battery. Those are the two I am looking at upgrading to for now. Same with the Bravo too I think. I dont see much value in the heated stall warning. And the pitot is heated anyway.

What happens to fuel vents - are they heated in the 252/231/Bravo/Rocket or are they designed so that they do not ice up and block fuel flow?

FYI, I don't think there is a FIKI approval for any Rocket conversion, even one that started with a 252. I could be wrong, but I believe that is the case. Factory Bravos, Ovations, Acclaims, and 252/Encores are the only FIKI-capable planes.

[bd32322]

FYI, I don't think there is a FIKI approval for any Rocket conversion, even one that started with a 252. I could be wrong, but I believe that is the case. Factory Bravos, Ovations, Acclaims, and 252/Encores are the only FIKI-capable planes.

No you are right - there is no FIKI for the rocket.

[bd32322]

For a brief period that was true, but since Jan 16, 2009, the FAA Chief Counsel provided legal interpretation to AOPA that corrected the interpretation you quoted and brought reason and good aeronautical decision making back into the process. It says in part "Rather than specifically defining "known Ice", the FAA defines "known or observed or detected ice accretion" in the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM). In paragraph 7-1-22 of that manual the agency defines "known or observed or detected ice accretion" as "actual ice observed visually to be on the aircraft by the flight crew or indentified by on-board sensors". Actual adhesion to the aircraft, rather than existence of potential icing conditions, is the determinative factor in this definition....." It then goes on to give advice on how to assess the icing conditions by examining available data and concludes with "If the composite of information indicates to a reasonable and prudent pilot that he or she will be operating the aircraft under conditions that will cause ice to adhere to the aircraft along the proposed route and altitude of flight, then known icing conditions likely exist. If the pilot operates the aircraft in known icing conditions contrary to the requirements of 91.9(a), the FAA may take enforcement action….”I’d post a link to the actual interpretation but just have a PDF copy of it handy.

thats good news !

[gsengle]

That is excellent news. That makes popping through a layer no big deal again. Hey, my favorite tool for evaluating the weather (and cloud tops on route of flight) is found at the experimental adds site. I may make a general post about this to see if others have better sources. If you go there, and go to desktop apps, flight path tool, there is a tool that shows you cross sections of the atmosphere in the future for your route of flight. (this is the supercomputer model noaa does forecasting from) Set it to relative humidity, and you'll be able to see where the clouds are, pick your altitudes, etc. Its really brilliant.

g

[KSMooniac]

That ADDS site and especially the icing tools are amazing! It becomes a touchstone for me in the colder months around here.

[gsengle]

That ADDS site and especially the icing tools are amazing! It becomes a touchstone for me in the colder months around here.

I'm going to post an fyi to the general forum. More people should know about it. I mean, more mooney drivers

g

[Parker_Woodruff]

FYI, I don't think there is a FIKI approval for any Rocket conversion, even one that started with a 252. I could be wrong, but I believe that is the case. Factory Bravos, Ovations, Acclaims, and 252/Encores are the only FIKI-capable planes.

Nit picking, but also the Eagle (M20S)

[230KT]

For a brief period that was true, but since Jan 16, 2009, the FAA Chief Counsel provided legal interpretation to AOPA that corrected the interpretation you quoted and brought reason and good aeronautical decision making back into the process. [snip]….”I’d post a link to the actual interpretation but just have a PDF copy of it handy.

Here's the link to the interpretation:

Click here for full text: .../interps/2009/Bell.pdf

[Goonies]

Is there a difference in the legalities regarding flying with FIKI and non-FIKI TKS installations in the UK and Europe?

[Awful_Charlie]

Is there a difference in the legalities regarding flying with FIKI and non-FIKI TKS installations in the UK and Europe?

Yes, from the ANO Schedule 2:

Scale M:

Equipment to prevent the impairment through ice formation of the functioning of the controls, means of propulsion, lifting surfaces, windows or equipment of the aircraft so as to endanger the safety of the aircraft.

 

required  when

x) on flights when the weather reports or forecasts available at the aerodrome at the time of departure indicate that conditions

favouring ice formation are likely to be met

 

the system has to be approved unless there is an exemption (such as ORS4 No.964 for oxygen and lifejackets), so you need the FIKI system for the UK.  At least the UK met office has now got rid of that catch all along the lines of 'Moderate Icing and turbulence in cloud' which taken literally would have forbidden any IMC flight by a non-FIKI aircraft....