warrentee repair denied by Signature

[tbrickey]

My recently overhauled engine required over $2000 in repairs which Signature Engines (Lunken Airport in Cincinnati) just called to say they wouldn't cover.

[AmigOne]

Did they give you a reason?, whatever warranty you thought you had, was it in writing? Did you leave something out on the o/h to save money?  Not the I would ever take an airplane to Cincinnati but I'd certainly pass that around if I hear anybody wants to.  If it was an arbitrary decision on their part is there any legal recourse?  It doesn't take a lot of money or a lawyer to file a complaint in the small claims court but you''d have to be there.  Years ago I threatened a supplier to inform the Aviation Consumer magazine and it worked like a charm.  With the possibility of spreading this issue on the internet most serious places will try avoid a situation like this, particulalry on a warranty situation. 

[tbrickey]

Signatures response addressed three reasons it was not their fault.  First, they claim the problem was simply a plugged injector.  The write-up says the injectors where checked and found clear.  Then they claimed the A/P was over his head and didn't know what he was doing.  Finally they claimed the mag that Signature delivered with the overhaul was not theirs and was provided by another shop so it was not the engine.  By the way a replacement mag was provided by the other shop at no cost.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

So was it an engine issue or a mag issue?

[AmigOne]

From the description it seems that it was a mag issue.  I guess that since the mag was replaced at no charge and the charge to trouble shoot and install/time the new mag was $2000, I would think that your shop is not one I would visit since it was really steep on both accounts, time and $$. (say 25hrs @ $80/hr)

[DaV8or]

It sounds like you're trying to get the engine shop to reimburse you for $2000 worth of labor charges by a mechanic not recommended by them. $2000 does sound ridiculous to diagnose and swap a mag. It would seem that a compromise could be reached for at least partial reimbursement. Of course it all depends on what is actually writen in the warranty.

[Cruiser]

Did Signature approve the repairs you had done?

OR

Did you go ahead with these repairs on your own and then try to get Signature to pay the bills?

[johnggreen]

Except in the most extreme, incontrovertible instances of fraud, it is totally inappropriate to post threads such as this on the Mooney Space site.  To allow one party, supposedly the aggrieved party, to place an undocumented, unsubstantiated redition of a written contract and chain of events that would/should rise to a legal arbitration, on this blog, for public dissemination, denegrates the integrity of ths site and of anyone who "buys in" to the probably slanted recitation of the issue.

My first impression when I read such accounts it that the "aggrieved" party is trying to bludgeon the other party into settling the issue in the aggrieved persons favor in spite of and contrary to the true issues of the disagreement.

Jgreen

[carusoam]

John,

I would understand better, if I were a lawyer, but I'm not...

Tbrickey has been here for a while, he's not selling anything, he seems to be reciting the facts as he knows them.

Sharing his misfortune with the mooney community.

What should he have done?

Left the names out?

I'm only an engineer...

Best regards,

-a-

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

John: I would be on the dissenting side of your outlook.  I would advocate for a person’s ability to post experiences they have had with aviation related businesses on this site.   The Original Poster appears to have merely stated the facts and circumstances surrounding a maintenance issue and a shops refusal to reimburse him for expenses.  I would opine the reader(s) would be free to form their own conclusion as to who should have been responsible for what.  Intelligent people could usually see through what’s a legitimate complaint and what’s BS.   I won’t fly to an FBO without checking AIRNAV first and reading the comments…same principle applies here, post your experiences and leave it up to the person reading the thread to form his/her own conclusions regarding their desire to spend or not spend money with a business. There is nothing more empowering in this day and age then the internet and if it makes a business work that much harder to earn someone’s business then I think that’s a good thing.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: johnggreen

Except in the most extreme, incontrovertible instances of fraud, it is totally inappropriate to post threads such as this on the Mooney Space site.  To allow one party, supposedly the aggrieved party, to place an undocumented, unsubstantiated redition of a written contract and chain of events that would/should rise to a legal arbitration, on this blog, for public dissemination, denegrates the integrity of ths site and of anyone who "buys in" to the probably slanted recitation of the issue.

My first impression when I read such accounts it that the "aggrieved" party is trying to bludgeon the other party into settling the issue in the aggrieved persons favor in spite of and contrary to the true issues of the disagreement.

Jgreen

[johnggreen]

Well George, by training, I am a lawyer, and I respectfully understand that your job isolates you from the normal appropriate procedures of business transactions.  Still, I hope that you do not think that you have learned anything of value about the supplier in question from this post.  More importantly, by experience, I have been involved in business and dealing with both customers and suppliers for 35 years with thousands of interactions per year.  I am not sure that I want to comment on this specific thread by Mr. Tbrickey, but if anyone can't see through this, they need a guide dog.

I may or may not address this issue directly.  It would be too much like wrestling with pigs.  You get muddy and the pig enjoys it.  After work and my work out this afternoon, I may reconsider.

I will again state that it should not be alowed.  

Jgreen

[danb35]

I disagree that posts like this should be prohibited, and FWIW, I'm also a lawyer.  The OP may or may not have a valid complaint here--at a minimum, there are some questions to be answered.  You'll note that a number of people posting here have recognized that additional information is needed to get some idea of whether the complaint is valid.  Anybody reading this thread will recognize that, at least, it's not a simple case of "Signature won't honor its warranty".

I guess I just don't see the severe problem that justifies the prior restraint that you're advocating.

[Mcstealth]

"and FWIW, I'm also a lawyer."  "Well George, by training, I am a lawyer," "I'm not a lawyer either, just a simple fighter pilot..."  "I'm only an engineer..."

Well. I just want all of you to know that I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  :) Okay, I just couldn't resist. Sorry

As for the OP. I will take it with a grain of salt, do my own due dilligence, and move on.

Sincerely,

David

 

 

 

 

[tbrickey]

I appreciate the debate on the value of a biased pirep.  This post was intended as nothing more than a pirep of my experience.  In response to the post from DaV8or, the cost was high because there are no maintenance facilities on Nantucket and it is necessary to flly in a quailified A/P.  In response to Cruiser, Signature was involved in the discussions and helped develop the testing that was performed to identify the problem.  What I think is an interesting question is who is responsible for the components that are delivered with an overhauled engine.  Is signature responsible for the mag that they delivered if the mag came from another shop?  Should I coordinate with the mag shop or should Signature?  I have no business relationship with the mag shop.  As a final thought, as a retired AF officer I find johnggreen's challenge to free speach to be unfortunate although I would still fight for his right to state his opinion.

[Hank]

When I bought a house from the builder, he provided a warranty. Plumbing problems developed, I contacted the builder, he sent a plumber; he did not refer me to the plumbing contractor to resolve with them on my own.

If I purchase an overhauled engine with accessories, why would the rebuilder send me off to his sub-contractors, with whom I've had zero dealings and did not select, instead of stepping up and taking responsibility, fixing the issue, and dealing with the sub-contractor on their own?

Or is it just "everything is different with airplanes" again, including business practices and common law?

P.S.--I've never had to buy an airplane engine, but mine was overhauled by the previous owner through Signature. I've put 450 trouble-free hours on it, and hope to get many hundred more.

P.P.S--Thank you, George! Something I imbided growing up, through many repetitions, is the attitude "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it." From my father George, a career U.S. Marine Corps officer. That's all I have to say about johngreens "appropriate" comment . . . .

[N9660M]

John, your assessment that, for those of us serving as military professionals, you "understand that your job isolates you from the normal appropriate procedures of business transactions" is off the mark.  The annual defense budget for our country is in excess of $600 billion.  Most of us at one point or another in our careers deal with the defense industrial base, contracting, and/or have contractors in the organizations we lead.

I've been fortunate to attend some executive leadership courses and seminars, most recently last month at Kansas University, taught by senior leaders from some very successful companies.  A recurring theme from most of them is that many companies in private industry would benefit from incorporating the values we live by in the military into their own cultures.

As a lawyer I'm sure you know the Constitution, that we in the military are sworn to support and defend, very well.  People are free to post what they wish.  The members of MooneySpace are by and large successful folks in their chosen fields and are quite capable of doing some critical thinking and forming their own opinions.

Jim

[rob]

Why would you want to discourage discussion? The whole point of Mooneyspace is discussion; the sharing of ideas and the dissemination of information. We as readers have to consider the source of any message whether it is about an IFR procedure, an engine overhaul, or numerous long posts about one's credentials and how many airplanes they have owned and how successful they are. In time, we form our own conclusions based on content and the source. Just like a conversation over a cup of coffee in a local diner. 

Signature is free to post here just the same as the OP. There is nothing unfair or wrong about a member of our community expressing their opinion. I, for one, appreciate honest pireps about anything, from kneeboards, to instrument overhauls, panel designs, or engine repairs. 

[DaV8or]

Of course it all comes down to how the actual warranty is worded, but I would figure it like so-

The engine company sold you an engine complete with mags that they in turn bought from someone else. I would think the engine company would reimburse you for all the labor, including the mobile mechanic's charge and they in turn would try to get a reimbursement from the mag company.

There may well be language in the warranty that states there is no, or limited coverage of the accessories. There may also be a stipulation on prior authorization for the choice of mechanics to fix the problem. This is why it's so important to read and understand the warranty before there's a break down.

[N601RX]

Directly from Signature's website.

Signature Engines warrants each overhauled engine to be free from defects in material and workmanship, under normal use and service, for 300 hours of operation or one year from date of sale, whichever occurs first, in accordance with the following conditions:

• Signature Engines is notified before any repairs are performed;
• Signature Engines shall have the option to furnish any part necessary for repair;
• All accessories purchased will be warranted per that respective vendor’s warranty. Signature Engines’ warranty is for the engine only; and
• All repairs are performed on a standard charge basis and must be agreed to prior to any warranty work being accomplished. All labor charges paid on a flat rate labor schedule furnished by the manufacturer.

The engined is further warranted on a pro-rated basis to TBO except that no labor
allowance will be provided after 300 hours of operation or one year from date of sale, whichever occurs first.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: johnggreen

Well George, by training, I am a lawyer, and I respectfully understand that your job isolates you from the normal appropriate procedures of business transactions.  Jgreen

 

Wow...I'm not sure what to say to that.  That's pretty insightful, esp considering you and I have never met.

[1964-M20E]

Quote: GeorgePerry

[Becca]

Quote: johnggreen

Well George, by training, I am a lawyer, and I respectfully understand that your job isolates you from the normal appropriate procedures of business transactions.  Still, I hope that you do not think that you have learned anything of value about the supplier in question from this post.  More importantly, by experience, I have been involved in business and dealing with both customers and suppliers for 35 years with thousands of interactions per year.  I am not sure that I want to comment on this specific thread by Mr. Tbrickey, but if anyone can't see through this, they need a guide dog.

I may or may not address this issue directly.  It would be too much like wrestling with pigs.  You get muddy and the pig enjoys it.  After work and my work out this afternoon, I may reconsider.

I will again state that it should not be alowed.  

Jgreen

[johnggreen]

As previously stated, I am opposed to threads such as this being allowed on this forum and believe this is a perfect example supporting my position.  When I read Mr. Rickey's post, I suspected something amiss.  I have never had any dealings with Signature or their owner, but knew that they had garnered a high degree of respect in the industry.  In fact, after a little researching find that they have consistently been rated one of the top ten rebuilders in the country by Aviaton Consumer.  I doubt they attained this reputation by denying legitimate claims.

So, I called Signature.  It seems that there are a few details Mr. Rickey failed to mention.  It is, in fact, my understanding that he was sent a new mag by the supplier, but that on a bench test of the returned mag there was nothing wrong with it.  Furthermore, I understand, that the issue was simply a blocked injector.  If I have mis-stated please understand that I have no personal knowledge of the controversy. It is though, incredibly curious that Mr. Rickey left this out in his original post.

Based upon the "other side" of the story that I received from Signature today, I can't believe that 1 out of a 100 members of this blog would believe that denial the warranty claim unjustified, but then this is Mooneyspace where anonymity is treasured and knee jerk reactions revered.

I will note that, according to Signature, Mr. Rickey's last attempt at reimbursement was the threat to post his grievance on the internet.  Mr. Rickey, do you feel better now?

Jgreen

 

 

[carusoam]

So the next step is...

(1) Call Signature again, armed with all this info, and see what they will cover.  They might surprise with good will?

(2) Write a factual follow-up: Glowing if they cover all the costs.  Dastardly, if they give no response, middle of the road if they meet some of the costs.

 

Keeping score...at Mooneyspace.

Pro Signature + 2

Anti Signature -1

 

In comparison...

Pro (that guy in Florida) +2

Anti (that same guy in Florida) 99 (estimate)

Anti Nantucket.... NO SERVICES.  That was expensive and outside the control of Signature.  Aviation life jackets are expensive.  Fuel, if you bought any, would be surprising.

Lessons learned...

Don't breakdown, and if you do, do it at home...

Share what you learned, but be factual about your experience.

1 bad review is only a single point of view.

99 (estimate) is a lot more points of view....

You all know that guy , right...?

 

So T,

How was Nantucket?  $400 worth of comfy life jackets and an expensive cab ride has kept me from trying.

I used to go by boat twice per year...

 

JG

Did you mean "not allowed"?

 

Thank you everyone...,

I learned a ton of things here, that I couldn't learn in flight training.

Thanks to all the lawyers for your open sharing.

Thank you to the service guys for defending this fabulous country and the freedoms that it provides.

Best regards,

-a-