Mooney spins and stalls

[kortopates]

If one seriously practices engine out glides to an airport followed by the spiraling down to a landing understands the Best glide is only a priority to get to the airport. Once above the airport the priority is to do a series of spirals abeam the intended landing point, which should be the IFR landing zone or about 1000’ past the threshold. At this point it can be very helpful to slow down to near minimum sink speed which is very close to stall speed. Not just to give you more time aloft but to help guarantee you finish your last spiral near pattern altitude and then just have to do your well practiced power off 180 to a landing. Anyone that isn’t practiced at being able to slow down to better position the aircraft where it needs to be for the final 180 is very likely to either go off the end or come up short. The spirals while positioning the aircraft are much harder to do than the glide to airport and will use all of your skills in dealing with the winds and being able vary your speed in the spirals to keep you where you need to be.
It’s something i do with all my transition training students and frequently on flight reviews.


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[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

 

I agree pointing the nose to the sun to do a power on stall isn’t that useful. But it’s the wrong way to simulate a power on stall. Most accidents involving power on stalls are departure stalls with the nose below or near about 15 degrees. This is happening because the pilot is pulling with too much back pressure well below Vg after take off and is often compounded by being at a higher density altitude than their normal departure.
The more realistic way to practice this is to greatly reduce the power with nose only at about a normal departure climb and allow IAS to continue dropping till about 10 kts above stall speed and then add 65% power and continue pulling back the nose till stall and you should get it to stall between 15-20deg pitch. This is much more realistic and can be done straight ahead or with some bank to practice recovery and see how the plane behaves.
Think of it more like a high density altitude departure stalls although the accident records show it doesn’t need the high density altitude to happen.


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Agreed. Even is a low-power airplane, the attitude required for a full-power power-on stall is pretty extreme. I recall the mantra, "feet on the horizon.  to get the nose high enough. Quite uncomfortable for most pilots, unless they are simply not paying attention.

Sometimes I think the power-on stall is more about yaw and rudder control than about stall recognition.  That may indeed be where the issue lies with stall/spin accidents on departure and go-arounds - apparently a bigger issue than the infamous base to final cross-controlled stall. Perhaps at altitude, we should be looking at full-landing configuration transition to the go-around or the missed approach climb under the hood rather than the artificial clean departure with an extreme pitch attitude.

[PT20J]

The late Ron Blum looked into stall spin accidents in the traffic pattern and found that they occur on departure far more often than base to final. 

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The late Ron Blum looked into stall spin accidents in the traffic pattern and found that they occur on departure far more often than base to final. 

Others have found the same. This graph snippet is from the most recent Nall report.  Far more landing accidents overall,, but those then to damage aircraft more than people. It's the fatalities which mark the stall/spin. 

 

Drilling down on those takeoff and climb ones...

[Echo]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

 

I agree pointing the nose to the sun to do a power on stall isn’t that useful. But it’s the wrong way to simulate a power on stall. Most accidents involving power on stalls are departure stalls with the nose below or near about 15 degrees. This is happening because the pilot is pulling with too much back pressure well below Vg after take off and is often compounded by being at a higher density altitude than their normal departure.
The more realistic way to practice this is to greatly reduce the power with nose only at about a normal departure climb and allow IAS to continue dropping till about 10 kts above stall speed and then add 65% power and continue pulling back the nose till stall and you should get it to stall between 15-20deg pitch. This is much more realistic and can be done straight ahead or with some bank to practice recovery and see how the plane behaves.
Think of it more like a high density altitude departure stalls although the accident records show it doesn’t need the high density altitude to happen.


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But I would submit it is NOT representative of the performance of my plane. Not into creating phantom scenarios. I see no value so I don’t do them in my plane. 

[Echo]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Agreed. Even is a low-power airplane, the attitude required for a full-power power-on stall is pretty extreme. I recall the mantra, "feet on the horizon.  to get the nose high enough. Quite uncomfortable for most pilots, unless they are simply not paying attention.

Sometimes I think the power-on stall is more about yaw and rudder control than about stall recognition.  That may indeed be where the issue lies with stall/spin accidents on departure and go-arounds - apparently a bigger issue than the infamous base to final cross-controlled stall. Perhaps at altitude, we should be looking at full-landing configuration transition to the go-around or the missed approach climb under the hood rather than the artificial clean departure with an extreme pitch attitude.

I cruise climb my plane at 120mph up to altitude. One time my co-owner had trim full up when I arrived at plane. I caught in preflight. THAT could of killed me …

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Echo said:

One time my co-owner had trim full up when I arrived at plane. I caught in preflight. THAT could of killed me …

Right there on the Before Takeoff Checklist in my Owners Manual it says:

Doesn't yours?

[bonal]

This has been a very interesting and educational thread that has stayed mostly on topic.  I’m surprised that it hasn’t drifted into the AOA indicator debate, oops.  As for my pre flight run up routine I like to use the CIGARS

controls checking for full deflection elevators aileron brakes and rudder (which is confirmed during taxi) Instruments, including a full scan and setting of all   Gas set for correct tank.  Attitude this is where I confirm trim and desired flap setting.. Run up 1700rpm  includes magnetos prop cycle and carb heat.  Safety seatbelts door check.  I guess this would fall under the flow category I’m sure I will receive criticism for this but it works well for me.

I remember flying my 150 and doing lots of stalls and what I thought were spins it was pointed out by my instructor that I was actually doing diving spirals and it wasn’t until I took an unusual attitude and aerobatic syllabus that I learned how aggressively you had to move the controls on a 152 aerobatic to get into a proper spin.  
 

when doing my flight review my CFI likes to get me to stall buffet by using the above example where you are slow behind the power curve with a slight nose up and pull back this seems to be a more likely situation compared to the radical climb into the sun approach which I can’t imagine anyone flying like that unless you’re flying a full on aerobatic plane 

[Justin Schmidt]

3 minutes ago, bonal said:

I like to use the CIGARS

I do too but got yelled at, like there's some fire hazard 

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Right there on the Before Takeoff Checklist in my Owners Manual it says:

Doesn't yours?

What are you talking about brother. I said I caught in preflight. 

[Echo]

Hank do you leave your plane in full up trim?  Ever?  Why would you not do that?  

[kortopates]

But I would submit it is NOT representative of the performance of my plane. Not into creating phantom scenarios. I see no value so I don’t do them in my plane. 

Far from a “phantom scenario” when you consider how much in common it has with a go-around. Mark already mentioned the key element that i didn’t mention is rudder control. The need for the pilot to build the reflex that right rudder must be matched by throttle; especially in your missile.
Similarly you may feel the same way about doing soft field takeoff’s. But they are an excellent maneuver in improving rudder control proficiency.


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[Echo]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Far from a “phantom scenario” when you consider how much in common it has with a go-around. Mark already mentioned the key element that i didn’t mention is rudder control. The need for the pilot to build the reflex that right rudder must be matched by throttle; especially in your missile.
Similarly you may feel the same way about doing soft field takeoff’s. But they are an excellent maneuver in improving rudder control proficiency.


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We are going to agree to disagree. 

[Justin Schmidt]

7 minutes ago, Echo said:

Hank do you leave your plane in full up trim?  Ever?  Why would you not do that?  

What would be the reason to do that

[kortopates]

We are going to agree to disagree. 

Fair enough.


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[Hank]

18 minutes ago, Echo said:

Hank do you leave your plane in full up trim?  Ever?  Why would you not do that?  

I don't think I've ever used full up trim. But I also don't routinely adjust trim after landing, maybe if I'm parking outside for several days.

20 minutes ago, Echo said:

What are you talking about brother. I said I caught in preflight. 

My Pre-Flight happens before I get into the airplane; Before Takeoff happens at the Hold Short line. Different things, different checks, different locations. 

[Echo]

30 minutes ago, Hank said:

I don't think I've ever used full up trim. But I also don't routinely adjust trim after landing, maybe if I'm parking outside for several days.

My Pre-Flight happens before I get into the airplane; Before Takeoff happens at the Hold Short line. Different things, different checks, different locations. 

Are you friggin’ debating semantics here. Good grief. 

[Justin Schmidt]

27 minutes ago, Echo said:

Are you friggin’ debating semantics here. Good grief. 

Isn't it semantics, though, that have caused crashes and even started wars.

[Echo]

49 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said:

Isn't it semantics, though, that have caused crashes and even started wars.

Good one. Strong reader?

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

I cruise climb my plane at 120mph up to altitude. One time my co-owner had trim full up when I arrived at plane. I caught in preflight. THAT could of killed me …

Oh come on.
Full aft trim…raising flaps on the go around…

Let’s see, what are some of the other deadly scenarios that are supposed to be killers that really aren’t?

[Jackk]

11 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Oh come on.
Full aft trim…raising flaps on the go around…

Let’s see, what are some of the other deadly scenarios that are supposed to be killers that really aren’t?

 How much force does this take?

 

 Honestly on most 4-6pax planes it’s some force but I don’t know how someone who can pass a medical or do a pull-up can’t overcome this 

[N201MKTurbo]

I will admit I have taken off with full up trim, and I’m here typing right now. Not that big a deal. You notice it at about 40 KTS, then if you have enough runway, throttle back a bit, spin the wheel as fast as you can, then full power. It takes about 100 yards of runway to do it.

[Justin Schmidt]

2 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 How much force does this take?

 

 Honestly on most 4-6pax planes it’s some force but I don’t know how someone who can pass a medical or do a pull-up can’t overcome this 

Have you done a 3rd class, I'm not even sure you need a pulse

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I will admit I have taken off with full up trim, and I’m here typing right now. Not that big a deal. You notice it at about 40 KTS, then if you have enough runway, throttle back a bit, spin the wheel as fast as you can, then full power. It takes about 100 yards of runway to do it.

Alternatively, you could just move the elevator into appropriate position and trim the pressure out of the yoke.

I’ve done lots of soft field takeoffs in various aircraft over the years. With full aft elevator, never once did the aircraft lift off into a departure stall. 

[Shadrach]

20 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said:

Have you done a 3rd class, I'm not even sure you need a pulse

Is there a pull-up requirement for first class?