Rght out of the gate? Seriously???

[DCarlton]

23 minutes ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

I've been thinking about this accident a lot since I read about it here on Mooneyspace yesterday.  In my opinion this was an accident that shouldn't have happened, no matter the ultimate physical cause.  For nearly 4 weeks and 4 pages of numerous thoughts this plane and circumstance has been discussed.  Some very sharp people have entered the discussion.  Yet it was clear to me at least, though the OP asked for assistance in his first post, he had his heart set on flying that airplane--no matter what.

I have found the instrument rating provides a close look into the personality of an individual.  Personality traits are magnified and by the conclusion of that endeavor it is not difficult to identify areas that could be problematic to future flying adventures.  Although certainly no psychiatrist, I like to go over the 5 hazardous attitudes and discuss any one I think might cause a potential issue for the student in the future.  Obviously this needs to be done tactfully.  However, in  31 years of instructing I've still had 2 former instrument students kill themselves as a result of the hazardous attitudes I discussed with them.  One was "resignation" and the other was "anti-authority".

If I were to hazard a guess at this one, it would be a combination of a small dose of "impulsivity" mixed with a large dose of "invulnerability".

I hope the lesson of this tragedy, is that we all carefully look through the lens of the 5 hazardous attitudes before we push the throttle forward.

After extensive troubleshooting, not being able to identify root cause of an engine issue that lead to an emergency landing several years ago was one of the most uncomfortable situations I've been in as a pilot; so much so that it lead to a firewall forward overhaul (which was coming due anyway).  It looks like Fred may have had confidence that they had identified the cause (sediment in the tanks) and it looks like he implemented a cautious check flight over the airport.  It's hard to second guess what should have been done.  Just tragic and f'ing horrendous given the history.  

[hazek]

27 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

It looks like Fred may have had confidence that they had identified the cause (sediment in the tanks)

I've read about so many different accident reports already in my short flying career that I rarely learn something new but this is a new lesson for me. Be weary of mechanical problems, sometimes the real issue might be something else or might be something in addition to what is found and could still be unresolved.

[Rmfriday]

This sucks…”new” plane, undisclosed issue pops up. AP checks everything, finds what he believes is the root cause, fixes that issue, does what looks like a reasonable test flight and declares all is fixed. Then the new owner takes it up and this happens.

this one should not have happened..

 

[Aaviationist]

38 minutes ago, Rmfriday said:

This sucks…”new” plane, undisclosed issue pops up. AP checks everything, finds what he believes is the root cause, fixes that issue, does what looks like a reasonable test flight and declares all is fixed. Then the new owner takes it up and this happens.

this one should not have happened..

 

You’re assuming the engine was t running. 
 

it was nasty in those parts at this time. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

22 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

it was nasty in those parts at this time. 

Still:  Impulsivitity and Invulnerability. "New" to him airplane, previous issue, marginal weather ==> Don't Fly

[Jeff Uphoff]

Not much of a track to work with here. Sporting crosswind from the west on the METAR--looks like he was drifting eastward almost immediately.  

--Up.

[Rmfriday]

39 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

You’re assuming the engine was t running. 
 

it was nasty in those parts at this time. 

You’re correct, maybe I shouldn’t assume that. We probably won’t know until the report comes out…

either way, lots of reasons not to launch…

[LANCECASPER]

If you listen to the interview of the homeowner where his airplane ended up, the only thing the homeowner heard was a loud thump like a tree falling, no engine noise.

He was shocked to have his neighbor tell him that there was an airplane on fire in his yard. We won't know for sure until the report but adding that to everything else that he had been dealing with this last few weeks on this airplane, it sure seems like he lost power shortly after take off. (When you hear hoofbeats . .  think horses, not zebras.)

"I heard a loud thump on the ground, but I thought it was a branch from one of my trees that fell to the ground. And so, I came around and then I came to my front door right over there. And there was a fellow running across my yard. He lives over here. And I said, what’s going on? He goes, ‘the plane fell!'"

 - - -

He took off on runway 23 with wind at 250 @ 15, with gusts to 26, 10 miles visibility. That by itself would have been a little bumpy but wouldn't likely lead to loss of control.

[Justin Schmidt]

23 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you listen to the interview of the homeowner where his airplane ended up, the only thing the homeowner heard was a loud thump like a tree falling, no engine noise.

He was shocked to have his neighbor tell him that there was an airplane on fire in his yard. We won't know for sure until the report but adding that to everything else that he had been dealing with this last few weeks on this airplane, it sure seems like he lost power shortly after take off. (When you hear hoofbeats . .  think horses, not zebras.)

He took off on runway 23 with wind at 250 @ 15, with gusts to 26, 10 miles visibility. That by itself would have been a little bumpy but wouldn't likely lead to loss of control.

Could be but also it is not uncommon for people living around airports to tune out the noise. Ultimately,  we will know in 2 years. 

Personally,  i thought the repairs were too quick to fully go through the full fuel system, clean and rebuild components. 

[201er]

The DTSB final report is out 

https://data.thedtsb.org/accident/mooney-m20e-n79338/

 

Dan Gryder concluded his exhaustive investigation and determined that the probable probable cause is pilot caused stall and absolutely not a fuel problem.

[hammdo]

Rolls eyes…

 

-Don

 

[Justin Schmidt]

Gryder is an idiot

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

The DTSB final report is out 

https://data.thedtsb.org/accident/mooney-m20e-n79338/

 

Dan Gryder concluded his exhaustive investigation and determined that the probable probable cause is pilot caused stall and absolutely not a fuel problem.

Probable cause in one day with no reference of his data source which indicates the engine was making full power at impact?  

[Shadrach]

23 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

Not much of a track to work with here. Sporting crosswind from the west on the METAR--looks like he was drifting eastward almost immediately.  

--Up.

I am more concerned with the appearance that the plane was not climbing. He gained no altitude in 30 seconds of ADSB data. 

[Jeff Uphoff]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

The DTSB final report is out 

https://data.thedtsb.org/accident/mooney-m20e-n79338/

 

Dan Gryder concluded his exhaustive investigation and determined that the probable probable cause is pilot caused stall and absolutely not a fuel problem.

Afraid I don't have a grain of salt small enough for this...

--Up.

[Shadrach]

I won’t speculate as to the cause of this crash. I am quite sad about the whole thing. 

[bonal]

This just breaks my heart, hope the surviving passenger makes a quick and complete recovery and can shed some light on what happened.  Following this thread you could feel the excitement about the new to him Mooney.  Also the frustration trying to solve the issue but what was he to do after he was told that the problem was solved including test flights.  I agree with the comments that conditions should have been a no go for a new to him flight with a possible issue with reliability. 
this really sucks 

[DXB]

20 hours ago, 201er said:

The DTSB final report is out 

https://data.thedtsb.org/accident/mooney-m20e-n79338/

 

Dan Gryder concluded his exhaustive investigation and determined that the probable probable cause is pilot caused stall and absolutely not a fuel problem.

DG is still a POS?  What a surprise.

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, DXB said:

DG is still a POS?  What a surprise.

I wonder when his trial for interfering with the NTSB is scheduled . . . .

[DXB]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

I wonder when his trial for interfering with the NTSB is scheduled . . . .

Or the one related to his very recent arrest for pulling a gun on the ANN editor in chief

https://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=66F80A08-3651-4567-8108-933258ADB965&fbclid=IwY2xjawN0vqZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETEwMmxGMnZSOGxpMGNkQ0N6AR6A_Y3oqRa-6C0O4fB8s9b7YmQKoS968UAjI0B2N116fWg6Jkypf4rMVvDHkw_aem_Sz3V3SjsBPW_11_CEQoxYA

 

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

Or the one related to his very recent arrest for pulling a gun on the ANN editor in chief

https://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=66F80A08-3651-4567-8108-933258ADB965&fbclid=IwY2xjawN0vqZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETEwMmxGMnZSOGxpMGNkQ0N6AR6A_Y3oqRa-6C0O4fB8s9b7YmQKoS968UAjI0B2N116fWg6Jkypf4rMVvDHkw_aem_Sz3V3SjsBPW_11_CEQoxYA

 

 “and which allegedly developed into an assault on Gryder by fellow resident Tracy Darrell Wallace the day before.  When Wallace reportedly approached Gryder the next day ‘to offer apologies (according to Wallace’ testimony), Gryder reported to ANN that he felt threatened and invoked Georgia’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ law, showing Wallace a small handgun on his own property and allegedly threatening its use if Wallace continued his approach.”

I would have done the exact same thing, guy attacks him on his property, comes back onto his property the next day and approaches him, any reasonable person would fear for a further assault.     Oh yeah he wanted to “apologize” lol

 

Per the NTSB, all he did was show their incompetence, think he removed trash they didn’t clean up after their “investigation” which later proved their investigative incompetence.

 

 Go look on USA jobs for the qualifications to work for NTSB or the FAA, they are laughable.

Almost as laughable as the sensitive GA types hate for Gryder 

Edited Sunday at 11:55 PM by Jackk

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

Or the one related to his very recent arrest for pulling a gun on the ANN editor in chief

https://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=66F80A08-3651-4567-8108-933258ADB965&fbclid=IwY2xjawN0vqZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETEwMmxGMnZSOGxpMGNkQ0N6AR6A_Y3oqRa-6C0O4fB8s9b7YmQKoS968UAjI0B2N116fWg6Jkypf4rMVvDHkw_aem_Sz3V3SjsBPW_11_CEQoxYA

 

I don’t think he pulled a gun on the ANN editor and Chief. That conflict occurred over the phone.  The incident involving the gun was between Gryder and an airport resident named Tracy Wallace.  Mr. Wallace appears to be a bit of a hot head as well, with previous charges connected to physical conflict. Looks to me like two D-bags got together and tried to out D-bag one another. It appears that Dan was triumphant

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t think he pulled a gun on the ANN editor and Chief. That conflict occurred over the phone.  The incident involving the gun was between Gryder and an airport resident named Tracy Wallace.  Mr. Wallace appears to be a bit of a hot head as well, with previous charges connected to physical conflict. Looks to me like two D-bags got together and tried to out D-bag one another. It appears that Dan was triumphant

So he posted bail, went home, fired up his keyboard and began displaying his now-proven D-bag skills with this accident . . .

[Yetti]

The problem was downstream (Engine cutting out).   One problem is found upstream.     Best course of action is to check ALL the places along the stream to ensure the problem upstream has not created more problems downstream.    It's called a system for a reason.   All the parts of the system have to work in order to have fuel delivery happen.

Was having the discussion just yesterday about how quickly you have to push down in a Mooney in take off configuration if engine cuts out to not stall it.   Everyone should practice this up high. 

[Mooney in Oz]

On 11/2/2025 at 11:47 AM, LANCECASPER said:

He took off on runway 23 with wind at 250 @ 15, with gusts to 26, 10 miles visibility. That by itself would have been a little bumpy but wouldn't likely lead to loss of control.

I suspect if Fred encountered a high level of turbulence or undershoot sheer then full power would have been maintained, provided the engine was developing power. Is there any available information on the position of the prop post impact?