Blown Engine!!

[ProprAire]

MooneySpace Friends,

I'd like to share an unfortunate occurance and get your suggestions for the way ahead.  Yesterday, I made a short VFR flight from Rochester to Syracuse (30 min at 3.5K ft).  Run-up, take-off, and climb were all normal.  After level off I reduced engine RPM to 2500 and closed the cowl flaps.  I then proceeded to lean using the EDM-700 Lean Finder.  Again, all seemed normal as the #2 cylinder was the first to lean (usually it's #2 or #3).  I then adjusted the mixture to run at 100 deg ROP.  All continued to go well through descent and landing (enriching the mixture along the way).  After rollout I advanced the throttle to taxi to parking when I detected the first signs of something being amiss.  I could smell burning oil and I noticed a 100 deg difference in CHTs on te EDM-700 (usually it's no greater than 70 deg).  After parking, I dismounted and discovered both nose gear doors were coated with oil and more oil dripping on the tire. 

The Landmark ground crew towed the plane to their hangar where the mechanic (Jesse) and I pulled off the top cowl for a visual inspection of what could be the culprit.  We discovered the trouble immediately.  The #2 cylinder was attempting to separate from the case, having sheared off the top two bolts.  Additionally, there was a 1 1/2 to 2 inch vertical crack in the case adjacent to the front edge of the cylinder...blown engine.

Landmark is going to send me a quote tomorrow.  I contacted Chris Schubert at Canandaigua Air Center who does my maintenance.  CAC completed my annual in March, issuing a clean bill of health for the aircraft (2200TT, engine has 650 hrs SMOH).  Chris thinks my best option to get back in the air this summer is to visit Airpower, Inc.  They offer a $3K difference between a rebuilt and overhauled OI-360.  http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/TLEngineDetail.asp?catID=33&prodID=9598  That's assuming I can get the full core value.  His other suggestion is to ship my engine to Penn Yann or anther nearby engine house to have them harvest what's salvageable (cylinders, accessories, etc.) and build a replacement engine.  I suspect this option will take considerable time and have concerns about warranty.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who's had a similar decision to make regarding getting their Mooney back in the air!

I'll ask Jesse to take a couple of photos of the engine to post to this string.

 

[Skywarrior]

Stuck valve?

[Jerry 5TJ]

Ouch.  Sorry to hear your "J" engine is trashed.  

Suggest you consider a new or remanufactured engine from Lycoming.   I think aftermarket engines can be just as good, but you might as well get the factory's "deep pocket" signatures in your log book.   That option will be one of the faster ways to get back in the air, too.  If you are thinking of selling your plane in the next few years the factory engine seems to carry a bit more perceived value to buyers. 

I put a zero-time engine from the factory in my Mooney when the time came.  I took the 'opportunity' to do a lot of firewall-forward items like hoses, engine mounts, baffles and sheet metal items.  You will have it all out and exposed anyway. 

Best luck in the process you're facing.

[jetdriven]

Lycoming will NOT accept that engine for a core.  It must be a complete, running engine. The core value is 14,500$.  I am afraid your option is a case repair, or a used case for 4k and a field overhaul at a shop.   I would ask the shop who last put that cylinder on. It sounds like paint under the cylinder base nuts or under torque.  One the nuts loosen, the studs fail in tension fatigue.  Sacramento sky ranch has an article about that.  

[Becca]

Quote: jetdriven

Lycoming will NOT accept that engine for a core.  It must be a complete, running engine. The core value is 14,500$.  I am afraid your option is a case repair, or a used case for 4k and a field overhaul at a shop.   I would ask the shop who last put that cylinder on. It sounds like paint under the cylinder base nuts or under torque.  One the nuts loosen, the studs fail in tension fatigue.  Sacramento sky ranch has an article about that.  

[Cruiser]

It is incredible the engine stayed together until you got on the ground. I couldn't image how things might have progressed if you had stayed in the air.

I sure would like to see the engine monitor trace for that flight.

[mooney2201]

if you own a airplane,you can afford to fix it right,with a lycoming factory new engine.you would pay anything if things went seriously wrong,and someone was killed.you got very very luckey,for ten grand difference in engine price,go factory,,by the way it sounds like someone overtorqued cyllinder bolts,i have seen this many times,,,very very luckey you didnt destroy the plane,with off airport landing.

[galt1074]

Quote: mooney2201

if you own a airplane,you can afford to fix it right,with a lycoming factory new engine.you would pay anything if things went seriously wrong,and someone was killed.you got very very luckey,for ten grand difference in engine price,go factory,,by the way it sounds like someone overtorqued cyllinder bolts,i have seen this many times,,,very very luckey you didnt destroy the plane,with off airport landing.

[OR75]

the choice of "factory" or "non-factory, "MSC" or "non-MSC" depends on many things. no one solution fits all. I would add that the free market works only when several options are available.

i am thinking that if it was not for having viable options for parts, service, etc ... the only thing that would not be new in my 77 J would be that stainless steel placard riveted under the stabilizer engraved with the type certificate and the serial number. 

[stevesm20b]

Wow! I hate it when that happens!

[N601RX]

This happened to someone 2 hangers down from me in a 182. The engine ran for 7-8 minutes like this.  It got him to an airport, Died on rollout.  I'm sure it was a long 7 or 8 minutes. It was a mid time factory remanufactured.

[Becca]

Quote: galt1074

Is a factory fresh engine really $10K (33% more by the quotes I've seen in other forums) BETTER than a third-party rebuild or a reman? (Real question, not sarcasm)

The Air Force makes a habit of paying 50% more for something that is 5% better. Even if one agreed with the assertion that "if you own an airplane,you can afford to fix it right", basic economics are a factor. If I were to agree with that assertion I would challenge you to go buy the most expensive gas you can find, have dual GTN750s pushing data to dual Garmin 3X displays, running on a freshly overhauled prop on every flight. It simply isn't realistic to bash someone for wanting to save a dime here and there so they can actually afford to fly their airplane.

I apologize Mooney2201, I really don't mean to be insolent but if I ever get to buy an airplane it will be on a budget and I have a little heartburn with people looking down their nose at me trying to stretch dollars and assuming that means I am unsafe. I've got lots of time in high-performance aircraft doing extremely dangerous missions in really nasty places...I know what risk looks like. Again, my sincerest apologies if I offend...just ruffled my feathers a bit.

OP, I don't even pretend to have knowledge on the economics you are dealing with or the best course of action. I will however be keeping a close eye on this one as the outcome is of great interest to me. Things like this will shape how I approach the prospect of buying an airplane in the future. Posts like this are the ones that scare me into thinking twice about being able to afford to own an airplane.

Greg

[nels]

Dan,

I've noticed a 201 engine for sale on Barnstormers. It is apart but maybe it is a great core or a good candidate for an overhaul. Just thought I'd mention it.

[jwilkins]

Quote: mooney2201

if you own a airplane,you can afford to fix it right, with a lycoming factory new engine.

[KSMooniac]

Factory New or Factory Overhauled comes from the same place that has produced bad cranks, cams, and cylinders in the last 15 or so years.  It seems all of the new parts manufacturers have had their issues with one part or another in recent history...my guess is due to rampant cost-cutting and out-sourcing with inadequate oversight.  You roll the dice with any option you choose, so each owner has to do their own homework and make their own decisions.  Becca and Byron evaluated their options and went for the factory choice.

Buying new doesn't guarantee anything except a higher price.  Reusing a component with a good service history that still meets new or acceptable tolerances very likely means it doesn't have any flaws.  Imagine what might happen if an AD hits the new roller tappet engines...they are sole-source Lycoming and there likely aren't enough roller parts on the shelf or capacity to replace a whole bunch of those in short order.

[ProprAire]

Thanks to all who've responded on this string so far.  I'm back at work today and haven't had a chance to digest all of what appears to be a great discussion.  Dan

[jetdriven]

Quote: N601RX

This happened to someone 2 hangers down from me in a 182. The engine ran for 7-8 minutes like this.  It got him to an airport, Died on rollout.  I'm sure it was a long 7 or 8 minutes. It was a mid time factory remanufactured.

[jetdriven]

 

 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

Here are some photos from our limited teardown.  We pulled the #1 and #3 cylinders off, then pulled the #3 rod off to look at the crank journal.

 

Photos 1 and 2 are the spalled intake lifter on #4. 

Photo 3 is the #3 piston with embedded metal "comet trails". This metal scored the cylinder walls on 3 cylinders.

Photo 4 is what appears to be a leak on the #3 cylinder at the head-barrel junction. Perhaps the start of a head separation.  This is a 10 year old factory new cylinder with 1340 hours.

Photo 5 is the #3 crank rod journal. Any scratches or grooves deeper than .006 and your 10K crank is toast.

Photo 6 is the deeply and extensively pitted #1 cylinder.  If you remember, we paid a certain Mooney expert mechanic in the Houston area an extra 500$ specifically to pull this cylinder and check for corrosion. Thats was 250 hours and 8 monhts ago, so I dont think it happened then.   I asked him to see it and he distracted me. So either he missed it, which makes him an incompetent mechanic, or he hid it which makes him a POS.  Before having anyone work on your Mooney in the Houston area, check with me to be sure you dont make mthe same $2,500 (or 35K) mistake I did.

 

 

[ProprAire]

Quick update on progress to return to flight.  I've spent the week learning more about what it's going to take.  Thanks to all who've shared on this string.  I've received only one quote thus far from Signature Engines.  Cost will be between $28K to 31K depending on how much credit they'll give me for the low-time core.  Still waiting to hear back from Airpower Inc.

I asked Landmark to go ahead and pull/crate the blown engine.  They are also seeking a couple of quotes.  Landmark just sent me the EDM-700 data.  I'd appreciate if someone could help interpret it.  I compared it to other flights dating back to April and nothing seems to have changed.  I've also attached a photo with highlights of the damage.

Cheers!

Dan 

[jetdriven]

That is clearly an undertorque or overtorque issue with resulting studs failing in cyclic fatigue.   Hate to say it, but the person who put that cylinder on, screwed you.  There should be no paint under those nuts. The case cracked when it attempted to pull the stud to the left out. It is larger than the two top center ones.      

http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng65.htm

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184271-1.html

I would seriously give Custom Airmotive, or Zephyr a call.  Those prices we were quoted include case repair, so I really have a hard time thinking that Signature is going to charge you 28-31K for a FIELD OVERHAUL when comparable work from these other guys is 20K (Custom Airmotive) or 22K (Zephyr).  New cylinders add 3K.   These are also both rated shops, Zephyr being right at the top.  I would fly behind either one, but I wanted roller tappets that are not availible from them.

Now, the factory engine is 27,500 and there is NO DISSIMILAR core charge to upgrade to the -A3B6 two mag engine.  For that you get the roller cam also.  They are going to scrap that case when they get it, but maybe you can sweet talk them into leting you slide on that, or pay a 4K fee for a "bad case" core.   You are at 31K again, but you are stepping up in a major way.  Call Airpower, they are not so good with email.  Email me for more info.

[ProprAire]

Thanks, Byron.  I called Joe Artiles at Airpower.  He thinks I may have a leg up with 650 hrs SMOH.  He's working up the quote and hopefully will hear something from Lycoming this week before they close for 2 weeks' vacation.

Dan

[Becca]

Quote: ProprAire

Thanks, Byron.  I called Joe Artiles at Airpower.  He thinks I may have a leg up with 650 hrs SMOH.  He's working up the quote and hopefully will hear something from Lycoming this week before they close for 2 weeks' vacation.

Dan

[OR75]

5 weeks seems a bit long for a trade. but vacation is great !

 

[Becca]

Quote: OR75

5 weeks seems a bit long for a trade. but vacation is great !