Making metal. Here we go.. into the abyss....

[jetdriven]

Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A3B6D

TTSN: 3,590

TSMOH: 1,325 (new cylinders, new cam, rebuilt lifters, 2001)

At the last oil change we found approximately 1/4 teaspoon full of ferrous metal in the oil filter.  Iron in the oil analysis is elevated, at 90 PPM (average was 30).

We are taking it in for a detailed inspection tomorrow to include a borescope and maybe pull off a couple cylinders for inspection of the cam and lifters. At this time, the major possibility is the camshaft or lifters have failed and engine replacement is neccesary.

I have 3 major options, maybe 4.

• 
  
• Lycoming factory overhaul engines have the new roller camshaft. There is a zero chargeback policy on the core engine provided it is not disassembled or damaged.
  

• 
  
• IO-390 is same price, but needs a new Hartzell "BA" prop, another ten grand, and about 4K in other costs.
  

• 
  
• Zephyr engine overhaul is 23K. This is reused cylinders and a new cam and lifters. The major risk here is the case or crank will not pass recertification.  Per Aircraft Specialties Services, a replacement serviceable crankshaft for an -A3B6D is 8-10K, and a new one is 14K.  they can only be turned to .009 undersize, and it was last machined to .003.  A replacement crankcase is ~4K. I would be liable for both.
  

We will know more on Monday, but it looks like an engine replacement.  Must have been all that LOP, climbing at 2,700 RPM, and air racing.  Wouldnt that be something, 188 MPH on a bad camshaft at gross weight.  I should have known better than to cheat the system

[Becca]

Quote: jetdriven

Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A3B6D

TTSN: 3,590

TSMOH: 1,325 (new cylinders, new cam, rebuilt lifters, 2001)

At the last oil change we found approximately 1/4 teaspoon full of ferrous metal in the oil filter.  Iron in the oil analysis is elevated, at 90 PPM (average was 30).

[Cruiser]

First, how satisfied have you been with the current engine? At 3590 TT it has a lot of life left considering mine ran to 6097 and two overhauls before being replaced. With only one overhaul I would think the crank and case are not much risk of being bad.

I have not heard of a satisfied IO-390 conversion owner.

Roll cams are nice, all the new engines have them. As a future consideration, if you overhaul the current non roller cam, in ten years, roller cam vs. non roller cam engines may be a major selling feature.

[rbridges]

Quote: Cruiser

First, how satisfied have you been with the current engine? At 3590 TT it has a lot of life left considering mine ran to 6097 and two overhauls before being replaced. With only one overhaul I would think the crank and case are not much risk of being bad.

I have not heard of a satisfied IO-390 conversion owner.

Roll cams are nice, all the new engines have them. As a future consideration, if you overhaul the current non roller cam, in ten years, roller cam vs. non roller cam engines may be a major selling feature.

[OR75]

what's the cost of a factory O/H these days ?

[jetdriven]

30-31k

[Parker_Woodruff]

I like your Zephyr idea. I just don't know enough about Custom Airmotive to provide a valid opinion. They could be great as well

[OR75]

i ll go the rebuilt route.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

30-31k

[M016576]

I just ran into the same dilemma about 4 months ago: I'm picking up my motor from Premier Aircraft Engines in Troutdale, OR in a few days.  The work is supposedly top notch and the cost was very reasonable.  I went the new cam, lifters, reworked cylinders (they only had ~300 hrs on them), rebuilt prop gov route.  Let me know if you're interested in the details... 

[jetdriven]

The airplane flew:

102 hours in 2006

61 hours in 2007

40 hours in 2008

16 hours in 2009.

15 hours in 2010 (includes 5 hour ferry to broker)

211 hours in 2011

20 hours Feb-Jun 2012.

 

Zephyr's standard OH cost is 21,900 plus another 700$ for a new cam and lifters.  New cylinders are 3800$ more.  SO, 23K for new cam and lifters, reusing my cylinders.   I think Zephyr cna build a better engine than Lycoming, but only theirs has a roller camshaft. 

My first inclination is to split the case, R+R the cam and lifters with a FWF centrilube, and roll on.

17 hours in 2010 (5 of which were ferry flight to selling broker)

211 hours in 2011 (to JAN 2012), and

15 hours since annual.

 

 

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Can't Zephyr offer you a camshaft with roller tappets?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: JimR

What about a Don Maxwell field overhaul?  He is relatively convenient to you. How would that price out?  I'm sure that you have read his article about them on his website. 

Jim

 

[jetdriven]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Can't Zephyr offer you a camshaft with roller tappets?

[scottfromiowa]

Have you considered Poplar Grove in Illinois?  They were rated very highly by Consumer Aviation a few years ago.  Might want to check out the article for a reference point to shops.  I know geographic location is a key item for shipping.  I have been pleased with the result since Major by Poplar Grove.  Only engine issue was a starter and that was replaced with a Sky-Tech...the Sky-Tech failed.  Sorry to hear this...I too will look forward to hearing about particulars and your decisions going forward.

[fantom]

I feel for you, Byron...but it's only money ;-) And you're splitting it several ways, aren't you?

If I trusted the engine otherwise, Zephyr does wonderful work, at least as good as Lycoming. Otherwise, Lyc IO-360, "o" time logbook, roller tappet, reman. It's almost always a new engine, or so I'm told, and a new crank would be great.

[N601RX]

Quote: jetdriven

The airplane flew:

102 hours in 2006

61 hours in 2007

40 hours in 2008

16 hours in 2009.

15 hours in 2010 (includes 5 hour ferry to broker)

211 hours in 2011

20 hours Feb-Jun 2012.

 

Zephyr's standard OH cost is 21,900 plus another 700$ for a new cam and lifters.  New cylinders are 3800$ more.  SO, 23K for new cam and lifters, reusing my cylinders.   I think Zephyr cna build a better engine than Lycoming, but only theirs has a roller camshaft. 

My first inclination is to split the case, R+R the cam and lifters with a FWF centrilube, and roll on.

17 hours in 2010 (5 of which were ferry flight to selling broker)

211 hours in 2011 (to JAN 2012), and

15 hours since annual.

 

 

 

 

[Becca]

Quote: aviatoreb

Curious as to how quickly this developed.  How many hours do you run your oil changes?  

I know you were kidding about it being the LOP, air racing, etc.  But just speaking it out - Do I recall correctly that your engine was underused for some time by the previous owner before you purchased?  Can this be rearing its ugly head now?  And could that have a bearing on the 23k Zephyr overhaul cost?

[Lood]

What's the source of the metal you found?

[jetdriven]

We cut the filter and start inspecting today.  My guess is either cam/lifter, broken ring, or accessory gears.

[N33GG]

Byron:

Sorry to hear your situation.  I have been through this decision procees SEVERAL, no read that TOO MANY TIMES!  It never happens when you are ready for it.  In the past, it was never with a Mooney, but the same general choices and issues were present in the process.

FWIW, in the past on other aircraft, I have chosen every option on your list, except the factory overhaul.  And, when my next time comes, I am going straight to the factory overhaul, for the first time.  While the other options in the past seemed like good choices and minimal risk, I had problems and regrets with every one of them.  While you can have issues with a factory overhaul, and there are no perfect answers, I will not hesitate for even one second when my engine shoots craps on me.  It will be straight to the factory overhaul for me.  I could go into details on each option, and my exact experiences may have been unique and not likely to be repeated, but the factory overhaul for me takes certain risk off of the table, and I will gladly pay for that in the future.  Then, who knows what my next choice will be?

[jetdriven]

Oily plugs on #4, good compressions (all mid 70s), sump screen clean, small amount of metal in filter on 15 hours.   Continue to investigate tomorrow. 

[M016576]

Mine started in a similar manner...

~400smoh, but it occurred in 1999.  Motor pickled in 2002, "resurrected" in 2009.  I put about 300hrs in 2.5 years on it, and compressions dropped off from 78's to 72's while oil consumption increased from a qt per 15 hrs to 1 qt per 5hrs.  Began pulling metal out of the oil filter after a sample came back at ~40 ppm iron plus elevated copper.  Pulled a cylinder: spalled cam/tappets.  

Soooo... Picked up my freshly O/H motor today.  It looks beautiful... We'll see how she runs.  Long story short: I feel your pain... So does my (empty) wallet!

[PTK]

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma Byron. These things are never pleasant but look at it this way, you'll have a new engine when it's all said and done!

I haven't had the "pleasure" of this experience yet! Out of curiosity you mentioned earlier that the source of the ferrous metal may be the cam and lifters. I know you and several other folks on here do utilize Camguard to protect the cam. Wouldn't this theoretically all but eliminate this possibility? Again I'm only asking and thinking outloud so to speak.

[M016576]

Quote: allsmiles

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma Byron. These things are never pleasant but look at it this way, you'll have a new engine when it's all said and done!

I haven't had the "pleasure" of this experience yet! Out of curiosity you mentioned earlier that the source of the ferrous metal may be the cam and lifters. I know you and several other folks on here do utilize Camguard to protect the cam. Wouldn't this theoretically all but eliminate this possibility? Again I'm only asking and thinking outloud so to speak.