Making metal. Here we go.. into the abyss....

[Seth]

Good luck with this process.  I overhauled the engine in my Mooney Missile at purchase.  It was making metal a the prebuy from part of the cam and almost all the lifters - two were in pretty bad shape.

I used Bolduc in Minnesota to overhaul the engine and though they delivered late by about a month, their work was top notch and the engine is running well.  I've put close to 80 hours on the new engine since October.  I am based in Maryland, but purchased the aircraft in Minnesota and had to go pick it up when it was ready with the fresh engine. 

Good luck!  And make sure to factor in other costs outside of the overhaul itself. 

-Seth

[flyboy0681]

[jlunseth]

+1 on Bolduc.  About $8,000 for a field overhaul of a TSIO-360-LB (not a zero time OH). 

[N601RX]

Quote: flyboy0681

When I first heard about the IO-390 STC a couple if years ago I was pretty jazzed about it. Now that there are some Mooney's out there with some real time on them, I've changed my mind. The initial promises called for improved cruise speed but from what I've read out there that really hasn't been the case.

With the additional cost of the O-390 over the O-360 and the requirement for a new prop, this sound like a losing proposition. The money may be better spent with speed mods such as a Lopresti cowl.

Just my 2¢

 

 

[OR75]

IO-390 does not bring enough benefit vs. cost (including new prop in many cases)

The only justification would be if the engine (which has the same footprint as the IO-360) was derated to use unleaded fuel. Maybe an option Lyc. are keeping in their backpocket for the future ?

  

[Shadrach]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Can't Zephyr offer you a camshaft with roller tappets?

[N601RX]

Quote: Shadrach

I believe they can, but IIRC, Charlie is not a fan and has seen a number of failures. I'm pretty sure that he would recommend going with the standard Lifter/follower arrangement...

[John Pleisse]

No comment.....

 

Byron:    ...looks like an engine replacement.  Must have been all that LOP, climbing at 2,700 RPM, and air racing.  Wouldnt that be something, 188 MPH on a bad camshaft at gross weight.  I should have known better than to cheat the system :)"

 

And really Byron...thanks for the above survey, but the top two tiers really "aren't you". Btw...today is my birthday :):)!!! Thanks Buddy!!!!

 

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: N601RX

I believe they can, but IIRC, Charlie is not a fan and has seen a number of failures. I'm pretty sure that he would recommend going with the standard Lifter/follower arrangement...

[Becca]

UPDATE:  It is definitely the cam/lifter.  It appears we have 3 options from expensive to most expensive:

1.  Replace cam and lifters.  However, the A&P who supervisors our maintenance doesn't seem willing to take this on, so we'd have to find someone else who would help us, so this may be a non-starter.
2.  Send it off for overhaul from a quality shop (e.g. We were thinking Zephyr, but open to suggestions).  Our cylinders were new at the last overhaul and they are willing to keep our cylinders with the overhaul so we know they won't get replaced with older units, they'll use new lifters, etc.  Our concern here is if we need a new crank or case its not included in the overhaul.  At our last overhaul, our crank was machined to .003 at the last overhaul (apparently the options are standard, .003, .006, or 0.009, after 0.009, it requires replacement) - I f the crank needs to get replaced, it becomes as expensive as buying one from Lycoming.  How often is this a problem?  Does anyone have any ideas on how to predict if you are going to have a problem with your crank or case before you send it off?  Anyone with experience in this?
3.  Get one from Lycoming.  Means we don't have to worry about crank or case.  Comes with roller lifters, which apparently don't fail.  Even though it adds value to our airplane, we are also a couple years away from needing new paint and an IFR GPS, so there are other ways we can spend the money since this is kind of a zero sum game, which is a consideration.

(We agree the IO-390 STC isn't worth it).

[KSMooniac]

Surely there is a good place around SE TX for a high quality field overhaul.  Your cylinders are known-good, cam/lifter known-bad.  Those are usually the two wildcards for these engines, so I'd rather roll the dice on a field overhaul and expect your case and crank to be good.  If you were already -0.009 on the crank, then maybe going the Lycoming route would make sense, but I think you have a lot of headroom to keep running what you have.  I don't think the -A3B6 cases crack/fail as often as the -A1A cases, but that is just my observation.  I'd also want a good shop that will balance everything with better tolerances than Lycoming.

Y'all like turning your own wrenches under supervision, so you might consider doing the R&R in your hangar with your mechanic and send the engine out.  That would be more cost savings, and give you a great opportunity to do a lot of the "little things" like checking all of the hoses and accessories, cleaning/repainting baffles, polishing the firewall, etc. that take time that you can spend instead of paying shop rates for easy but time consuming tasks.  Save that cash for the paint and -540 GPS, or a better engine monitor, etc.

[jetdriven]

Happy Birthday, John!  Many more to you, old friend.   PS the valves look great.  Unfortunately, the rest of the engine is shot....

Quote: N4352H

No comment.....

 

Byron:    ...looks like an engine replacement.  Must have been all that LOP, climbing at 2,700 RPM, and air racing.  Wouldnt that be something, 188 MPH on a bad camshaft at gross weight.  I should have known better than to cheat the system :)"

 

And really Byron...thanks for the above survey, but the top two tiers really "aren't you". Btw...today is my birthday :):)!!! Thanks Buddy!!!!

 

 

[jetdriven]

OK, so the #3-4 intake lifters have spalled out and so has the #1 exhaust.  This engine was built in a hangar in Tulsa, and had new cylinders, reworked crank and case, new camshaft, and..........reground lifters.  After consulting with 2 A&Ps and 2 IAs, the determaination was insufficient nitriding on the replacement lifters, causing failure.  

So, now, decision time.  Factory overhaul, or Zephyr. 

[M016576]

Quote: jetdriven

OK, so the #3-4 intake lifters have spalled out and so has the #1 exhaust.  This engine was built in a hangar in Tulsa, and had new cylinders, reworked crank and case, new camshaft, and..........reground lifters.  After consulting with 2 A&Ps and 2 IAs, the determaination was insufficient nitriding on the replacement lifters, causing failure.  

So, now, decision time.  Factory overhaul, or Zephyr. 

[Lood]

I had a similar problem a while ago and I feel your pain. In my case, the case had cracked and I bought e new one. However, after the engine was opened up, all sorts of things popped up and the cam as well as the crankshaft had to be replaced. Now there was no turning back and to top it all, I had no core to return. So, I had to have the engine overhauled completely, replacing all that needed replacing with new parts. I now have a brand new engine that runs beautifully, but it was extremely expensive. Converting our money to yours, the crank case, crankshaft kit and camshaft kit alone, cost me $14k and in total, the engine cost me $31k.

I'm sure it will be much cheaper over in the US, but if I knew then what I know now, I would not open an engine that was not operated by myself from day one. Despite the fact that my old engine only had 700 hours SMOH, had a hairline crack in the case and ran like a clock, it was about 2 hours away from seizing - according to the engine shop.

If i could afford it, I would opt for something from the factory.

[ELT]

Like Lood I had a cracked case on a 700 hour engine.  I first hoped to replace the case and do a repair.  When the engine was opened by Aero Engines of Winchester we found problems with almost everything but the crank.  New case, cam, pistons and more.  Due to costs I installed rebarrelled first run cylnders.  Costs to OH engine, OH or replace all accessories and external components, transportation and remove/install, fresh annual:  24 AMUs  My AI advised me to expect 30-35 AMUs.  Now I have a great running engine and depleted bank ccount.  I can only say great things about Tail Wind Aviation and Aero Engines. 

[jetdriven]

 I was told 5K for a replacement case and 8-10K for a used -a3B6D crank.  Is that right?

[ELT]

Unknow costs of case and crank by me.  Aero engines does not have an "up charge" if your case is repairable.  They just exchanged mine for a yellow tagged case.  Aero's part of the bill was 17 AMU.  This for an IO360A1A.  Lycoming cranks almost always pass. 

[N601RX]

Unrepairable cases and cranks are the exception and not the norm.

The rod journels don't look that bad from the pictures you posted. I would not be overly worried about the crank being at .003.  It can still go to .010 under.  My crank made to 4300 hrs before needing grinding.  It almost cleaned up at .003 but they took it to .006 to get it back to new tolerences. I was a little nervous when I dropped it off, but they went ahead and looked at it while I was there and said it should be fine.  I was a little relieved when they called back the next week and said it was ready to pick up.  They said the IO 360 cranks were good cranks and they saw very few problems with them, even after a prop strike. They can blend out any minor corrosion and repair the gear area if damaged. Split the case and see, If you don't like what you see put it back together and send it to Lycoming.  It does't take that long. The hardest part is making a wrench that will fit the nut behind the cam gear.

It seems to me like Lycoming already has the cost of a crank or case factored into their price whether you need it or not.   Two of the shops that I visited had in-house cam grinding capability.  They both had a low opinion of roller lifters.

[Shadrach]

Byron, While I have had great service from Aero Engines of Winchester (as has ELT judging from his post), I chose them because they were local (driving distance). I would suggest that you try to find a reputable shop that is close. Zypher is a 1st class shop, but being that you are a hands on kind of a guy, I think that you would find additional comfort in being able to see the results of the tear down and have an occasional F2F with the person building your engine.  Aero had my engine torn down and crated in about 3.5 hours (I dropped it off with a pick-up truck, sans accessories). I felt much more comfortable seeing the internals and Tom know that I'd be by to see them. There was no miscommunication, we were on the same page from day one.

Charlie Merlot (Zypher) is top notch and I think you'd have a great experience, but you don't have to go with a huge shop to get a quality overhaul.

[John Pleisse]

[N601RX]

Quote: N4352H

Insufficient nirtiding? Please. Disuse...maybe, exasserbated by use. Can't wait to read your break-in postings.... I am certain they will be ground breaking. No wait...you'll use the same cylinders.

[jetdriven]

The cam was new, they cheaped out on the reground lifters.  I think that was the failure point. In fact, the lobes look pretty good, just some minor spalling on the edge of the nose.  The 3 failed lifters are completely chewed up.

[M016576]

My case was ok, crank was ok, too despite cam/tappets spalling.  cost for the new cam kit is only 2amu's.  Labor for disassembly is probably 4-6 amu's depending on who you choose.... If its just the cam, then you could IRAN for 8-9k, but at 1200 hrs tsoh, it's kind of kicking the can down the road.  My IO-360 A3B6D was just OH'ed by Premier Aircraft Engines in the Portland, OR area that I'd be happy to recommend from a service and price perspective (4 AMUs less than what you've posted above for zephyr..I haven't got the motor reinstalled/broken in yet, so I cant comment on that).  Everything I've read/heard about this shop is top quality though (I didn't find a single bad review or complaint by anyone).  My local shop recommended Premier Aircraft, then I followed the OH story of a Maule pilot on Backcountry.net and his experience with them (can be found by googling "IO-540 making metal": to sum it up though, he was pleased as well).  

I did alot of homework prior to picking my shop, i suggest doing plenty of research and don't take a shop off the table until you've checked them out.Most shops seem to have at least one disgruntled customer.  Some of the bigger shops really like to ride their self perceived fame... I quoted and overhaul from victor engines and broke oJut in laughter when I saw what they were charging!  I mean seriously: it's a 1940's technology 4 cylinder motor, not a 13 stage turbofan!  Anyway, I'd consider the IRAN as well if you want to milk out the remaining time or if you're even remotely considering selling prior to hitting 2000smoh.

On a side note: posted some pictures of my motor just back from premier aircraft engines....

[N601RX]

Quote: jetdriven

The cam was new, they cheaped out on the reground lifters.  I think that was the failure point. In fact, the lobes look pretty good, just some minor spalling on the edge of the nose.  The 3 failed lifters are completely chewed up.