Upgrading to turbo

[Wingover]

I am looking to go from my J to a turbo.  My usual trip is 2 people (total 300 Lbs) with luggage (around 80 Lbs) and around 700-850 nautical mile each way.  Highest mountain is 12,000 ft on the way.  We have done a few in the J (small deviation to avoid the top of the mountain) but it is just over 4.5 hours.  We are looking to "shave" an hour off so need something in the 180-190 kts range.  Also, need to be able to climb for weather in the fall or winter.  This is all flying in southern Europe in winter and to central Europe the rest of the year.

I see some of the people here who went from a Bravo to an Acclaim and back and some that just don't see the Acclaim as "better" than the Bravo.  Could I get some feedback from those who actually had both and chose to either go back or stay, as to what were the deciding points?

[Fritz1]

Asked myself exactly the same question before I bought the Bravo 7 years ago, the Acclaim is faster, better cowl, better propeller and newer, the G1000 limits your upgrade or modification options, most important question to ask yourself is whether you want to fly behind a conti or a lycoming, semi religious question like Chevy versus Ford or Beemer versus merc, you will find the answer talking to mechanics and overhaul shops that work on these engines, enjoy the journey!

[Wingover]

2 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

Asked myself exactly the same question before I bought the Bravo 7 years ago, the Acclaim is faster, better cowl, better propeller and newer, the G1000 limits your upgrade or modification options, most important question to ask yourself is whether you want to fly behind a conti or a lycoming, semi religious question like Chevy versus Ford or Beemer versus merc, you will find the answer talking to mechanics and overhaul shops that work on these engines, enjoy the journey!

Appreciate the feedback.  My J in Lycoming and I am happy with it.  I am aware of the debate that Continental is more "delicate" and needs more work if flown not by the book but I don't have real experience behind it to say that I have to avoid it.

[Fritz1]

They are both excellent airplanes, 100 gal of fuel and TKS tank full they carry one guy and a briefcase, so they are two person airplanes at best, Bravo shines in the flight levels going east, we have done GPS direct many times from the Chicago area to our home on the east coast 190 Kt TAS and 260-280 over the ground, the TKS is invaluable if you fly in the mountains in winter

[Fritz1]

The Lycoming TIO-540 AF1B has sodium filled exhaust valves and oil cooled exhaust valve guides, more thermal reserves than the conti, however the last new one was built 20 years ago, conti has a better induction system and runs LOP more easily, the million $ question is how these two turbo engines will fare when avgas disappears some time in the next 10 years, time will tell

[PilotX]

Bravo is the only answer, unless you have money then you can get a used Citation for $250. I run LOP and fly 170 TAS 14.5 gph under 1650 TIT and 380 CHT.

[Wingover]

56 minutes ago, PilotX said:

Bravo is the only answer, unless you have money then you can get a used Citation for $250. I run LOP and fly 170 TAS 14.5 gph under 1650 TIT and 380 CHT.

Any specific reason against the Acclaim?

[IvanP]

2 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

The Lycoming TIO-540 AF1B has sodium filled exhaust valves and oil cooled exhaust valve guides, more thermal reserves than the conti, however the last new one was built 20 years ago, conti has a better induction system and runs LOP more easily, the million $ question is how these two turbo engines will fare when avgas disappears some time in the next 10 years, time will tell

I do not think that we have 10 yeasr of 100LL avgas left. More like 3 years, if that. I love my Bravo, but the prospect of not having good fuel available is pretty scary. 

[Fritz1]

No specific reason against the Acclaim, lots of advantages, however the Lycoming cylinder is better suited for turbocharging and lasts longer, that was the deciding factor for me, everybody has different priorities, the last Bravo was built in 06, last Acclaim was built in 19, so the airframes are newer

[exM20K]

6 hours ago, Wingover said:

My usual trip is 2 people (total 300 Lbs) with luggage (around 80 Lbs) and around 700-850 nautical mile each way.

That's a pretty long trip.  The Acclaim will do that reliably most of the time non-stop.  It will out-climb the Bravo and is maybe 10% faster, but the biggest advantages of the Acclaim are its ability to run LOP and a superior climb rate (310HP).  I'm not sure a Bravo has the legs to do that trip reliably non-stop. Perhaps Bravo owners will chime in on the range.

My 90% trip is approximately 740 NM, burning anywhere between 62 - 80 gallons. Only when we had the dog and couldn't climb to 16-17,000 did we ever have to stop for fuel.

The Acclaim is more expensive to buy and maintain. Plan for top overhaul and turbo's at 1000 hours ($6500x2 and ~$25-30,000 for the top)

Bravo's have the reputation of making TBO and beyond more reliably.

-dan

[slowflyin]

850 with no wind is doable.  Westbound typically means significant headwind up high or slower down low.  Either way, 850 Westbound isn't something I'd plan on ROP.  LOP helps dramatically but not all Bravos care for it.  

[Wingover]

40 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

850 with no wind is doable.  Westbound typically means significant headwind up high or slower down low.  Either way, 850 Westbound isn't something I'd plan on ROP.  LOP helps dramatically but not all Bravos care for it.  

Most of the time the trip is 700-750 with the occasional 850.  I figured 17GPH at 180Kts is around 4 hours with IFR reserves the 750 should be a no problem.  Usually I don’t have to fight the wind here in Europe and we are a bit flexible with the timing.

Edited February 27 by Wingover

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, PilotX said:

Bravo is the only answer, unless you have money then you can get a used Citation for $250. I run LOP and fly 170 TAS 14.5 gph under 1650 TIT and 380 CHT.

In that case the answer is a 252/Encore.

I have 1060 pound UL.

I normally run at 64% power, LOP giving me 175 KTAS on 10.1 GPH.  Under 1600 TIT and under 380 CHT.

[Wingover]

10 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

In that case the answer is a 252/Encore.

I have 1060 pound UL.

I normally run at 64% power, LOP giving me 175 KTAS on 10.1 GPH.  Under 1600 TIT and under 380 CHT.

From all the 252 posts on here it seems the 175 ktas is achievable at 75% and at 12,000 and above but more like 165-170 is realistic to plan for.

[Pinecone]

You have to go high, but I am typically 170 - 175 at 64% depending on CG.

[Z W]

On 2/27/2025 at 3:03 PM, Wingover said:

From all the 252 posts on here it seems the 175 ktas is achievable at 75% and at 12,000 and above but more like 165-170 is realistic to plan for.

Most 252's do 160-165 KTAS and 11-13 GPH at 12,000. Pinecone's seems to run 15 knots faster on 20% less fuel than everyone else's.

[PilotX]

On 2/27/2025 at 12:50 PM, Pinecone said:

In that case the answer is a 252/Encore.

I have 1060 pound UL.

I normally run at 64% power, LOP giving me 175 KTAS on 10.1 GPH.  Under 1600 TIT and under 380 CHT.

How dare you sully the Bravo forums with your mid-body talk.

[PilotX]

On 2/27/2025 at 10:40 AM, Wingover said:

Any specific reason against the Acclaim?

I’m too poor. Along the same lines why would you spend $1M for a Cirrus when a 200K Bravo is faster? Dass a lot o’AVGAS!

[M20F]

23 hours ago, PilotX said:

I’m too poor. Along the same lines why would you spend $1M for a Cirrus when a 200K Bravo is faster? Dass a lot o’AVGAS!

I came here to post this, surprised it ended so far down.  The Acclaim is a great plane but it isn’t worth the additional purchase price cost for what you get over a Bravo. 
 
Honestly if I was spending $300K+ for this type of mission I would be looking at Barons.  
 

This all is just an opinion, the fact you are in Europe you may want to talk to some other Europeans here.  Support and other things are probably a bigger consideration for you.  

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I went with a Bravo vice an Acclaim mainly because of the price delta, the more reliable lycoming (perceived or real), and most importantly the avionics were not upgradable.  That was a showstopper for me.

[kortopates]

Most 252's do 160-165 KTAS and 11-13 GPH at 12,000. Pinecone's seems to run 15 knots faster on 20% less fuel than everyone else's.

No turbo is going to do well at 12K, but bring it up to the upper teens and you’ll see that performance at either 13 GPH ROP or LOP at lower FF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinecone]

On 3/1/2025 at 7:31 AM, Z W said:

Most 252's do 160-165 KTAS and 11-13 GPH at 12,000. Pinecone's seems to run 15 knots faster on 20% less fuel than everyone else's.

I think those are 231 numbers.

[Jetpilot86]

Bravo owner here. 
I run about 72% power to keep the #3/6 CHT’s <=380°F and get 174ktas on 14gph LOP at 17000/18000. I plan for 15gph. I can do me and a bag and 118 gal. 90 when the boss and dog are along. 
Keep in mind, at 3368# MTOW, you’ll need to fly about an hour and a half to get to the 3200# MLW. 

I’m hoping to sort some cooling problems and be able to run a little faster.