Engine Overhaul Price 2025

[corn_flake]

I was shopping for a place to overhaul my IO360 with angle valve.   So I figure I share my notes here.  

Lycoming factory overhual - $58k + core

Lycoming factory rebuild exchange - $64k + core

Lycoming factory new - $105k (not sure if core is required)

Lycoming factory rebuild exchange IO-390 - $88k

Well known shops such as Firewall Foreward, CCS, etc - $53k

Less known local shops - $32k to $40k.  

Lead time on non-factory overhual run any where from 3 to 5 months.  

Lycoming apparently is not interested in overhual business...  Wait for it.. drum roll, 27 to 30 months months lead time!!!  They also ask for 20% deposit while they holding on to that money for almost 3 years.  

Safe flying guys!

[Mark942]

WOW !!  Thanks for the recap.  Considering that our engines are antique technology these prices are just insane.  So my engine has 500 HSMO and $60K added into the panel in the past 5 years and an airworthy air-frame wrapped around it... why are planes like mine selling for a $100K at best?? I think we are all nuts.  Nothing like enjoying a hobby that costs about $10K a year even if you only fly one hour, and can get you killed if you don't do everything just right.  Just sayin... I think we are all nuts.

[corn_flake]

I know some guys would justify the cost by assuming they could make the money back when selling the airplane, which is rarely the case.  

We are all nuts indeed.    There you go, first step to recovery....

[aviatoreb]

We are all nuts indeed.  Certainly I am nuts.  My engine is in overhaul right now.

[Andy95W]

One option that might become popular for the lower end airplanes is an IRAN like @hammdo just did for his M20C.  He got 4 new cylinders, new camshaft and lifters, new bearings, and it was reassembled IAW the Lycoming overhaul manual and is up to date on all the ADs.  All for a lot less money (and time) than waiting for a big engine shop to do the same thing.  IIRC, his engine is well past TBO and has been opened up twice since its “official” overhaul.

Under FAR part 91, we don’t have to overhaul our engines.  That word “Overhaul” adds a big mark up in price and liability insurance for the engine shops.

[hammdo]

True, it took 3 weeks from finding the spalling to IRAN. The engine is going on the plane now. Everything was checked but only what needed was replaced. Cylinders were my idea as I was putting in new cam, DLC lifters, lifter plungers, pushrods as needed, new rod bolts, nuts, gaskets, intake tube hoses, bearings.

~800 hours ago, it was pulled for a gear up - case, crank were certified and line bored. New prop, OH governor, Cam and lifters certified too but that didn’t stop the spalling. The owner @ that timed decided to not overhaul or replace the cylinders - that was the only thing keeping it from being a full overhaul then. Lots done since then. I Didn’t want to wait 5 to 6 months. I know what is in the engine now, and it was running great before the spalling.

Seems the right option…

Edit: oh, and it has ~2200 hrs since factory rebuild/major, ~4100 hrs since ‘new’

-Don

[Jsno]

Spalling is unfortunate and expensive.  Usually caused by the engine sitting too long between runs.

[corn_flake]

What's the verdict of the DLC on lifter?  One of the shops I talked to say it's best thing ever come of genera aviation (exaggeration).  They further added, if Lycoming had done DLC from the beginning, we wouldn't be see all the cam spalling.  

[hammdo]

My cam also spalled where it rides in the case — no lifters there!

-Don

[67 m20F chump]

5 hours ago, hammdo said:

My cam also spalled where it rides in the case — no lifters there!

-Don

My neighbor has a 56’ Bonanza with a E225 engine.  It’s old and if the last overhaul was as resent as the 80’s I would be surprised.  I had a IO-470 with a mid time factory overhaul in the late 90’s and spalled lifters.  I think the source of the metal has changed.  Even car manufactures are having lifter problems while my old boats and tractors just sit for extended time and still not fail me.  I would blame it on the oil if it wasn’t for the old stuff not failing.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

My neighbor has a 56’ Bonanza with a E225 engine.  It’s old and if the last overhaul was as resent as the 80’s I would be surprised.  I had a IO-470 with a mid time factory overhaul in the late 90’s and spalled lifters.  I think the source of the metal has changed.  Even car manufactures are having lifter problems while my old boats and tractors just sit for extended time and still not fail me.  I would blame it on the oil if it wasn’t for the old stuff not failing.

Probably not so much with aircraft, but modern Auto oil is very different now, lots of high pressure lube additives and acid neutralizing additives missing as it poisons sensors and Cats etc

For that reason decades ago I switched to Diesel oil in every non aircraft engine I own, but in the last few years Diesel oil is also losing its additives as they now run exhaust particulate filters etc.

My Jeep engine, the V6 Pentastar is infamous for cam follower spalling for instance. Next oil change I think I’m going with 5W-40 Rotella T6 in it.

Auto manufacturers went to roller cams etc years ago primarily due to cam spalling etc., I mean decades ago.

My Wife inherited a 1923 Model-T recently, it had sat in a non running state missing ignition coils etc since I think the 60’s. I did have to pop the head and clean out the cooling passages and replaced the valves when I was there, but there was no rust in the cylinders or anywhere other than the water jackets, it even has the original cast iron pistons. Carb was a mess with incorrect parts etc. but it runs like a sewing machine now, leaks but burns no oil etc.

I personally believe some of it is because many of the old processes like Cadmium plating for instance or Alodine, zinc chromate , is no longer available due to environmental concerns. We used to Cad plate our spar caps at Thrush, before I left they had gone to pre-coat, which can’t be as good.

Edited February 5, 2025 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

52 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Probably not so much with aircraft, but modern Auto oil is very different now, lots of high pressure lube additives and acid neutralizing additives missing as it poisons sensors and Cats etc

Auto manufacturers went to roller cams etc years ago primarily due to cam spalling etc., I mean decades ago.

I personally believe some of it is because many of the old processes like Cadmium plating for instance or Alodine, zinc chromate , is no longer available due to environmental concerns. We used to Cad plate our spar caps at Thrush, before I left they had gone to pre-coat, which can’t be as good.

 

Modern auto oils have LOTS of acid neutralizing additives.  Look at the recently linked video on oils and see the TBN (Total Base Number) for the various ones.  Auto oils are over 10.  Aircraft oil is around 0.5.   I am not sure why aircraft oils can't have a higher TBN, as we have acid problems in our engines.

I had not heard of cam spalling in normal passenger cars.  I thought that the roller lifters were to reduce friction and increase fuel mileage due to CAFE standards.  Like the 0W-20 oils.  My race car is powered by a 1991-93 Ford Escort engine.  It had roller lifters.

You can still do cadmium plating, just have to jump through EPA hoops.  I looked at getting the main spar attach bolts for my CAP-10 cad plated, and found a couple of shops, but lead times were in the several month range.

[toto]

4 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

My neighbor has a 56’ Bonanza

That’s a really big Bonanza

[A64Pilot]

Aerospace Defense Coatings in Ga. I think maybe Macon did our Cad Plating. They are good and decently quick too, we used to Cad plate but stopped when we bought Thrush due to concerns of being fined.

They also do small jobs, I sent all my common hardware from my IO-540 when I overhauled it and they cad plated the nuts, bolts, washers etc.

Aircraft oil is low in TBN I believe because of being ashless, ZDDP would be excellent for our oils cam wise, TBN etc. it was forever THE additive in Auto’s, unfortunately it’s not ashless so it can’t be used in aircraft, and cars dropped it because it ruins O2 sensors and Cats, which is I believe the real reason we went to unleaded fuel years ago, because the lead made emissions controls not possible. Sure lead is bad, but yiu simply can’t have emission controls and leaded fuel so lead had to go.

Yes rollers do decrease friction some but not by much, but every little bit helps, even controlling oil flow so only what’s needed is provided helps. CAFE is dead, it died long ago when SUV’s and PU trucks became exempt. I miss it and think it should come back, because it was why there were so many small inexpensive cars in times past because they bumped CAFE, manufacturers don’t want to build small inexpensive cars. more profit in $100K SUV’s so now that they don’t have to anymore they don’t. Many people can’t afford $100K SUV’s they need small inexpensive cars.

The Pentastar is used in everything Chrysler and they eat cams and followers, have been too, there have been several redesigns and they still eat cams. Search Pentastar cam follower problems this is just one of many hits including many Youtube. I don’t think it’s lifter pressure, the Pentastar is weird, it has a two stage oil pump, pressure jumps from about 60 to above 90 PSI at 3500 RPM, something I have never seen before.

https://tuningpro.co/fca-pentastar-engine-recalls/

Quote:
A chain-driven, vane-type variable displacement oil pump adjusts the flow rate and pressure as commanded by the engine management system, which uses a solenoid to drive the pump into low or high pressure mode. For example, below 3,500 rpm, the pump conserves energy by using low pressure; at speeds over 3,500 rpm, the pump switches to high pressure.

A force balance mechanism inside the oil pump adjusts the size of the pumping chambers to alter oil flow. If the oil is cold, the pump reduces the size of the internal chambers. When the oil is hot and thinner, more oil is needed, and a spring increases the size of the pump chambers. This also saves energy.

The pump is driven at a 1:1 drive ratio; its location under the block is more efficient than an on-crankshaft location. An internal, mechanical ball-and-spring relief valve dumps oil into the sump when needed, for conditions such as a cold start with high engine speed. Both pump and pressure regulation solenoid are non-serviceable.

Edited February 5, 2025 by A64Pilot

[PeytonM]

I paid a 10% deposit to AirPower for IO360A3B6 factory rebuilt in April 2024, with a scheduled delivery November 2025. Delayed to May 2026. Just found out there is another delay to April 2027! No credibility for even THAT date. 4200TT, 2000 SMOH. Using a quart/6 hrs. Compressions and borescope all good. Not sure what to do. 

[TheAv8r]

25 minutes ago, PeytonM said:

I paid a 10% deposit to AirPower for IO360A3B6 factory rebuilt in April 2024, with a scheduled delivery November 2025. Delayed to May 2026. Just found out there is another delay to April 2027! No credibility for even THAT date. 4200TT, 2000 SMOH. Using a quart/6 hrs. Compressions and borescope all good. Not sure what to do. 

Keep flying it. 1qt/6hrs is normal, if it's not making metal, you have no indications of a problem.

[MikeOH]

That's about what mine burns. I have around 2700 SMOH...Compressions are high 70's and borescope looks good.  I plan on continuing to fly it.  Obviously, I'm a fan of "on condition"

[MikeOH]

Frankly, if faced with those ridiculous lead times and pricing, when the time does come for an OH, I think I'm going the IRAN route. Cases sent out, crank inspected, new bearings, cam, lifters, and OH the cylinders...so what it doesn't say OH in the log book?  Only time that's going to matter is when I sell and, yeah, I may take a loss but I'm sure not seeing how the same won't happen with an OH given the absurd prices!  I.e., if I take the value of my plane with what everyone considers a run-out engine and add >$70K ($64K engine plus R&R) for a 0 SMOH log book, no way I'm getting $70K more.  Probably more like $35K.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Frankly, if faced with those ridiculous lead times and pricing, when the time does come for an OH, I think I'm going the IRAN route. Cases sent out, crank inspected, new bearings, cam, lifters, and OH the cylinders...so what it doesn't say OH in the log book?  Only time that's going to matter is when I sell and, yeah, I may take a loss but I'm sure not seeing how the same won't happen with an OH given the absurd prices!  I.e., if I take the value of my plane with what everyone considers a run-out engine and add >$70K ($64K engine plus R&R) for a 0 SMOH log book, no way I'm getting $70K more.  Probably more like $35K.

What you just mentioned sounds like an overhaul. Lycoming has an SI on what must be changed during an overhaul, the service manual tells how to inspect the parts to see if they are reusable. 

[PT20J]

Wow. 3 years for a Lycoming factory rebuilt! When I did mine in the fall of 2018 it was 3 MONTHS! I know they got backed up during COVID and I know they had problems a few years ago when they brought cylinder head machining in house, but I would have thought they would have gotten ahead of this by now. It seems to be getting worse. Anyone received an explanation from Lycoming?

[varlajo]

2700 SNEW, 1 qt/10 h, regularly borescoped and not making metal.

Expecting factory-rebuilt IO-360-A1A in early 2027 

Fingers crossed! 

[DCarlton]

42 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Wow. 3 years for a Lycoming factory rebuilt! When I did mine in the fall of 2018 it was 3 MONTHS! I know they got backed up during COVID and I know they had problems a few years ago when they brought cylinder head machining in house, but I would have thought they would have gotten ahead of this by now. It seems to be getting worse. Anyone received an explanation from Lycoming?

It would be great if someone in the know could write an article assessing the viability of both Continental and Lycoming engines (sustainability, parts, overhauls) over the long term.  It seems like every time I ask questions around the airport, folks seem to think Continental is in worse shape the Lycoming.  None of it sounds good.  A three year lead time on overhauls or parts is DOA.  

[toto]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Frankly, if faced with those ridiculous lead times and pricing, when the time does come for an OH, I think I'm going the IRAN route. Cases sent out, crank inspected, new bearings, cam, lifters, and OH the cylinders...so what it doesn't say OH in the log book?  Only time that's going to matter is when I sell and, yeah, I may take a loss but I'm sure not seeing how the same won't happen with an OH given the absurd prices!  I.e., if I take the value of my plane with what everyone considers a run-out engine and add >$70K ($64K engine plus R&R) for a 0 SMOH log book, no way I'm getting $70K more.  Probably more like $35K.

+1

There are just way too many unknowns over the life of an engine to pay for an overhaul solely on the basis of resale value. Spend the money that needs to be spent for you to safely enjoy the aircraft, and don’t worry about the next owner. You’re just as likely to get pushed around on the price, but you’ll have $35k more to play with.

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What you just mentioned sounds like an overhaul. Lycoming has an SI on what must be changed during an overhaul, the service manual tells how to inspect the parts to see if they are reusable. 

Exactly!  My point was you can do all that stuff as an IRAN for $35K, getting that 'zero' SMOH logbook entry is going to cost you another $35K

[toto]

21 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Exactly!  My point was you can do all that stuff as an IRAN for $35K, getting that 'zero' SMOH logbook entry is going to cost you another $35K

If I remember correctly from the earlier discussion, a recent IRAN was only like $23k, and a six-week turnaround.  It might be worth doing just for the turnaround time, even if there was no cost savings.  I'd rather have the plane in the air than sitting on the ground waiting for a solid gold factory OH to arrive in three years.