AndreiC Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Some of you may recall that a couple of months ago I asked some questions about doing a paint correction (i.e., buffing) and ceramic coating my plane. Here is the bind I am in. After a lot of comparisons I found a shop nearby that was willing to do the job for 2/3 of the original quote I had gotten ($3500 versus $5000). However, maybe they did tell me and I did not register, or maybe they did not tell me and I found out only afterwards, but the product they applied is PermaGard, which from what I can tell is a polymer based coating, not a ceramic coat. The plane looks very nice now, but I wonder how durable this product is, and how I can proceed going forward. From reading on the internet, this product needs to be applied every year, or else it becomes useless after a year or two. (This seems to be in contrast to what ceramic shops told me, which was that their product was expected to last 3-5 years, and on the longer side if the plane was hangared.) Two questions: a) Is there a way I can maintain this polymer coating with products available to the general public, so that it lasts me a long time (without needing to pay $2000-3000 every year to get it commercially reapplied)? I know that a ceramic coating cannot be put on top of this without a new polishing and chemical stripping of the Permagard product. b) What products would people recommend using on top of the Permagard? Wax (like WashWax All), or some of the other coatings like Triphene or pther graphene based protectants from Amazon? I am pretty discouraged that I did not do a bit more research beforehand to understand the difference between the polymer and ceramic coatings... Thanks, Andrei.
IvanP Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 You may also consider checking what UL fuels will do to this coating. There are few posts about the possibly detrimental effects of unladed fuels on aircraft paint. 1
A64Pilot Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 (edited) Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last. “Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer. https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/ This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ? Edited January 24 by A64Pilot
Marc_B Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 I think the biggest benefit from ceramic coating is that they are much easier to clean which translates to less work, less pressure, and less scratches from scraping the surface. The "better" the coating, the longer the protection lasts. The "professional" grade products last longer but part of that is that the surface is properly prepared so that the product adheres better, and the other part is the quality of product. Base preparation and paint correction is time intensive and requires some degree of technique/equipment. Most professionals would probably recommend a touch up or refresher every few years...a good rule of thumb is when you notice a different in water beading, slickness or gloss. Most paint shops I've spoken with recommend ceramic coating. Of course the "value" of this, like most things in aviation, is dependent on the eye of the beholder. @AndreiC it's interesting that Permagard advertises as not needing paint correction and so seems like it should have been way cheaper than ceramic with paint correction. 1
AndreiC Posted January 24 Author Report Posted January 24 Well, I talked to PermaGard and got some slightly better news. They said that their product is relatively easy to apply after the initial preparation and application (so just to maintain it), and for a small plane like mine/ours they would be able to sell it to me directly. They said that just watching a 1-2 hour video that is available on YouTube would be enough to understand how to apply their product, and that one could get a Mooney-like plane in a day of work, taking it relatively easily. So I can, with relatively minimal cost, do the yearly maintenance of the coating, and with that things should last a while. My concern was that I did not want to be stuck with having to pay a specialized contractor to do it every year for a large (~2 AMU) expense. @Marc_B: my plane needed paint correction anyway, the paint was old, badly oxidized and just plain dirty (with dirt embedded in the paint). So that is how I explain the high cost of what I got -- they needed to go over the paint at least twice with their buffing/polishing before applying the PermaGard product. Apparently GulfStream uses the PermaGard product for their planes. Maybe it's not so bad... 3
Rotorhead Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 @AndreiC most of the money you spent towards the labor of the actual paint correction. The coating most likely took about a 1/5th of the time and the cost of the coating itself couldn't of been any greater than $200. You're still in a good spot really. Since the paint correction has been completed, and you have protection applied, your paint will continue to look good. You could apply another ceramic coating on top of the poly earlier than a year to ensure continued protection without having to get a full paint correction as well. Coming from a guy who has done a paint correction or two ... 5
Pinecone Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 I think a good quality coating on a hangared aircraft should last at least 5 years. I did my M3 with Zaino about a year after I got it in 2002. It is garaged. It still looks good and water beads on it.
Flyler Posted Wednesday at 12:26 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 12:26 PM If you just had the paint correction done, with zero coating/wax on top, the plane still would've looked amazing. The coatings, whatever type they are, will add some depth to the shine but also protect the paint so it looks amazing longer. They certainly make the surface more slippery so dirt and water don't stick. More importantly, Mooneys are supposed to be slippery. I think if you keep up with the re-application as per PermaGard's recommendation, your plane is going to look way better than most others on the lot, for a long time coming
Aaviationist Posted Wednesday at 01:02 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 01:02 PM On 1/23/2025 at 2:40 PM, IvanP said: You may also consider checking what UL fuels will do to this coating. There are few posts about the possibly detrimental effects of unladed fuels on aircraft paint. Your agenda isn’t everyone else’s agenda. don’t do that. 1
Schllc Posted Wednesday at 01:51 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 01:51 PM On 1/23/2025 at 7:10 PM, A64Pilot said: Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last. “Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer. https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/ This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ? im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared. I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar. If you are on a ramp, i don't believe it would last one year. UV and heat are inexorable. 2
A64Pilot Posted Wednesday at 03:19 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 03:19 PM 1 hour ago, Schllc said: im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared. I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar. If you are on a ramp, i don't believe it would last one year. UV and heat are inexorable. Location too of course Using your example I believe Rejex will last at least a year and WAY less expensive and very easy to apply. It’s lasting 6 months on our cars in Fl and they are taken through the car wash several times a month. I believe the overwhelming majority of the benefits of professionally applied Ceramic coating is the paint “correction” I believe in my day it was called cut n buff or similar.
EricJ Posted Wednesday at 03:22 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 03:22 PM 1 hour ago, Schllc said: im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared. I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar. My airplane is hangared and I've coated it twice in eight years, so that's about right. On my vehicles it seems to last 3-4 years. They're usually garaged but spend more time outside than the airplane does.
DCarlton Posted Wednesday at 03:41 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 03:41 PM I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer. Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer. Very satisfied with the results. After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual. I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work. 1
PT20J Posted Wednesday at 04:08 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 04:08 PM 28 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: Location too of course Using your example I believe Rejex will last at least a year and WAY less expensive and very easy to apply. It’s lasting 6 months on our cars in Fl and they are taken through the car wash several times a month. I believe the overwhelming majority of the benefits of professionally applied Ceramic coating is the paint “correction” I believe in my day it was called cut n buff or similar. Rejex is what my painter recommends. Easy to apply, once a year.
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Posted Wednesday at 05:29 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 05:29 PM 1 hour ago, DCarlton said: I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer. Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer. Very satisfied with the results. After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual. I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work. How about a picture?
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Posted Wednesday at 05:37 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 05:37 PM On 1/23/2025 at 6:10 PM, A64Pilot said: Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last. “Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer. https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/ This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ? Well, if the definition of ceramic is, as listed in your link, "an inorganic, non-metallic", that excludes lots of polymers, since they are organic. Seems more like marketing buzzword hype.
Hank Posted Wednesday at 05:56 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 05:56 PM 2 hours ago, DCarlton said: I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer. Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer. Very satisfied with the results. After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual. I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work. Did this to mine last year. He also shampooed the interior. Looks great! 25 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said: How about a picture? 2
DCarlton Posted Thursday at 05:11 PM Report Posted Thursday at 05:11 PM 23 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said: How about a picture? 3
IvanP Posted Friday at 11:26 PM Report Posted Friday at 11:26 PM (edited) Whatever these various coatings are, I doubt that they are "ceramic" as the term is genrally understood in material sciences. If I recall corectly, ceramics are generally mixtures of various inorganic minerals and water that are formed to desired shape and subsequently hardened by exposure to high temperatures. Most of the "ceramic coating" products that I looked at state that they are polymers which would indicate presence of organic compoounds, hence not ceramics. Marketing hype at its best . Notwithstanding the hype, some of the products do seem to provide good protection to automobiles and aircraft. I might try one of these to see. Edited Saturday at 01:16 AM by IvanP
PT20J Posted Friday at 11:57 PM Report Posted Friday at 11:57 PM As I understand it, ceramic waxes use silica (SiO2) in place of carnauba. SiO2 is a component of ceramics and hence the marketing term "ceramic" for these waxes. There are probably varying qualities of this stuff and it will be difficult to tell the difference from the marketing hype.
DCarlton Posted Saturday at 03:40 AM Report Posted Saturday at 03:40 AM 3 hours ago, PT20J said: As I understand it, ceramic waxes use silica (SiO2) in place of carnauba. SiO2 is a component of ceramics and hence the marketing term "ceramic" for these waxes. There are probably varying qualities of this stuff and it will be difficult to tell the difference from the marketing hype. https://greenwayscc.com/blogs/articles/polymer-coating-or-ceramic-coating-which-is-right-for-your-car#:~:text=When it comes to durability,months%2C requiring reapplication more frequently.
skykrawler Posted Saturday at 01:25 PM Report Posted Saturday at 01:25 PM I have used NuFinish on my aircraft a couple of times over 10 years. Original paint. It's hangar kept and I wash it once a year (belly cleaned more often of course). $3000 for a buff job? Yow. Clay bar and beer. 1
IvanP Posted Saturday at 09:33 PM Report Posted Saturday at 09:33 PM It would be interesting to see some peer-reviewed articles in reputable scientific publications ragarding the science behind these various coating products, ragarless of whether we call them ceramic, polymer, or something else. Cursory search does not really bring up anything but various blogs and websites that try to sell consumer on their products, many containg dubious claims about protective properties of these products, e.g., "ceramic" coating will prevent rock chips and scratches v. polymer coatings will not, etc. (I do not think that either product will prevent the paint from being damaged when you get a rock flying at you at 70mph on the highway). Interestingly, none of the articles that I was able to find expressed any concerns about the underlying paint, except for the common sense preparation of teh surface prior to aplication. What I saw were broad claims that appear to apply to all paints equally, regardless of the many differences between various paint systems used on aircraft and automobiles.. Installer and seller sites typically do not mention anything about the different paints. Do these magical products bond to all paints equally and form an impenetrable shield against elements or are we just being sold a very expensive snake oil? I tried some high-end waxes on my cars in the past, but the differences between wax/polish systems in the $50-100 range and the expensive stuff around $500 or more did not seem to be significant. These "ceramic" coating products have been on the market for a while now. I am curious why do car manufacturers not apply these on factory new cars - if it is such a magic bullet, having that as an option could be worth it. 2
MikeOH Posted Saturday at 11:30 PM Report Posted Saturday at 11:30 PM @IvanP I couldn't agree more with your post. I'm getting old enough to be pretty cynical about 'miracle' coatings having seen many different 'miracles' touted over the decades I've been detailing my vehicles. Frankly, like getting a good paint job in the first place, it's the quality of surface preparation that results in a superior finished look. As far as longevity, I've had the best luck with hand applied pastes/waxes vs. 'spray on' or thin/watery 'coatings' IMHO, longevity is largely/mostly a result of coating thickness, more than what 'miracle' material is employed. Sure, technology has improved UV resistance, but thickness matters
Schllc Posted Saturday at 11:44 PM Report Posted Saturday at 11:44 PM Plane perfect is a product I have been using for several years. It is 35 bucks a batch which realistically could do my Mooney twice. however, once you mix it you have limited time to use it before it crystallizes in the bottle. it’s basically wipe on, wipe off, no real effort and produces fantastic results. I don’t know what it is, what is in it, or how it works.. what I can tell you is once the plane is clean it takes about 30 minutes to apply, and the water beads off like fresh rain-x for about a year or so. it won’t address paint corrections or swirls and scratches, but I guarantee it will move your paints appearance by several degrees at a minimum , regardless of the condition. I have no financial interest or connection to the product. I only know that I am thrilled with the cost to value.
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