Purchasing a M20-A 1960

[Hank]

2 hours ago, 1967 427 said:

I am now obsessed with that rubber.  The skins are from a later model like F’s and J’s, and it is difficult to see from the pictures, but it doesn’t look like a full length rudder like on F’s or J’s.  It looks like the lower section is fixed.  Can that be a field approval? 337? Or a mechanic that says, “shhh it will be fine.”?

Older Mooney rudders stop at the horizontal stabilizer. The change to full-length rudder happened some time after 1965. My 1970 C has the full-length rudder. 

[Mooney Newb]

22 hours ago, Mooney Newb said:

Thank you for the list. The company doing the annual has offered to let me observe the process. I’m going up Sunday to go over details on the purchase. 

 

added some photos. 

 

 

[DXB]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:45 AM, Mooney Newb said:

Hello all,

I’m a new pilot, found a 1960 M20A locally. Seems like a good deal. 1200 smoh, 2600 taf. Spoke to the AD that did the last annual and he had nothing but good things to say about it. Plane will come with an annual as part of the purchase price. Hangered with dehumidifier. Previous owner has had it for 18 years. The owner is out of the area but may come back to give intro flight (if not I will contact one of the Mooney CFI that I found local to my area) has all of its logs it looks like. About 18” thick briefcase full of papers. Wings all seem firm and no delam and flap brackets have no movement. 
 

I will be flying this extensively.

What should I be looking for? 

Should I pass on this and spend 3 times as much on a piper warrior or Cessna?

 

Thank you for any advise you may have.

Welcome @Mooney Newb.  Tons of great guidance have been given here already from experts like @cliffy and others.  I was in your precise shoes in 2014, when I bought my C model.  Folks here gave me invaluable guidance back then and have continued to do so over the years, and it's been a great (albeit expensive) journey.   I would only add that the learning curve for aircraft ownership and maintenance is fairly steep for the newb, and there will be many details you will need to learn about and process before making safe and resource-efficient decisions.   Adding the wood wing of the A model into the mix is more than I would personally want to take on  in your shoes - that may be better left up to the experienced enthusiast with passion for preservation of a flying historic relic.  The skills to evaluate, maintain, and repair that portion of the airframe are rare these days, and it will be tougher to get questions and concerns answered accurately as they arise.  There was good reason for Mooney to go to an all metal design in the M20B, despite the superior performance characteristics of the smooth wood surface.  However, if you do want to take on this added challenge, best of luck to you.   I do hope someone buys this wood wing bird and keeps it going. 

BTW if do you spend 3x as much, please spend it on a Vintage Mooney, not a Warrior or trainer Cessna!   You will be well-rewarded for the extra initial time an effort to transition into a vastly superior aircraft in almost every respect.   Note, the cost of ownership will soon dwarf the initial purchase price, no matter which of these options you go with....

[Rwsavory]

Looks like some good, recent maintenance. ADSB-Out installed 2023 (a plus!), but no flights recorded since then per FlightAware. 38 hours of tach time between 2018 and 2023. 

[EricJ]

My hangar neighbor has a very nice example of an M20A that he's owned for decades.   The wood wing seems to not be an issue if it is properly maintained and in good shape.   Learning how and what to do and what not to do is apparently a learning curve, though.   I've poked around at his airplane a number of times when he had it apart and I was helping with something.   They're nice when they get the TLC they need.

[Mooney Newb]

On 12/28/2024 at 10:15 AM, 1967 427 said:

I am now obsessed with that rubber.  The skins are from a later model like F’s and J’s, and it is difficult to see from the pictures, but it doesn’t look like a full length rudder like on F’s or J’s.  It looks like the lower section is fixed.  Can that be a field approval? 337? Or a mechanic that says, “shhh it will be fine.”?

Looks like completion of an AD according to files with the Faa

[Mooney Newb]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:45 AM, Mooney Newb said:

Hello all,

I’m a new pilot, found a 1960 M20A locally. Seems like a good deal. 1200 smoh, 2600 taf. Spoke to the AD that did the last annual and he had nothing but good things to say about it. Plane will come with an annual as part of the purchase price. Hangered with dehumidifier. Previous owner has had it for 18 years. The owner is out of the area but may come back to give intro flight (if not I will contact one of the Mooney CFI that I found local to my area) has all of its logs it looks like. About 18” thick briefcase full of papers. Wings all seem firm and no delam and flap brackets have no movement. 
 

I will be flying this extensively.

What should I be looking for? 

Should I pass on this and spend 3 times as much on a piper warrior or Cessna?

 

Thank you for any advise you may have.

As an update to all. I have not yet purchased the Mooney. The owner never completed the title process with the FAA. This makes sense as he had a medical issue that I’m told required amputation. The FAA then cancelled the registration and the N numbers as of December 7th 2024. The owner is going to look into what he needs to do to fix this and I’m going to look for a Mooney wood worker to inspect the plane (so far none found locally). The records indicate that the entry side wing was pulled and repaired in 1997 for wood rot with photos of the repair. Still strongly considering this once it gets all sorted. However the wing off repair concerns me. I was advised by several pilots to not buy any plane in Florida unless it has a detailed inspection for corrosion and rot because in their experience most planes not kept in hangers have these concerns. This has been kept in a hanger since its repairs, and has had a detailed annual that included taking apart and inspections the wings for rot and none was found. Sooo? I’m on the fence now. Still looking for a flyer but seems extraordinarily complicated with this model and this previous owner.

[Schllc]

You appear to really want this plane so let me say this. 
If this is the one that scratches your itch go for it. 
You may get burned, but the odds are against that with the history you describe.  
will it have its unique challenges? Absolutely!  
But that’s ok too.  An airplane, for most ga pilots anyway I hope, it’s a romantic adventure as well. 
A plane is an expensive and completely discretionary purchase. If you do not love it, you will resent its demands. 
So if this one is calling to you, buy it and enjoy the experience. 

[kerry]

You can't take off a left wing.  The whole wing would have to be removed.  That doesn't mean the wing needs to be removed for rot repair. Rot usually happens at the area's inboard at flap brackets.  It's strange it's left and not right side, It's usually the right side that falls apart because the wing walk area take abuse from getting in and out of the airplane over the years of use.  Wood glue joints coming apart and needing repair is not over concerning.  I would be very concerned with rot repair especially if rot is at the main and rear spar.  If you want a wood wing Mooney then I would find one that doesn't have a history of rot.

[Mooney Newb]

5 minutes ago, kerry said:

You can't take off a left wing.  The whole wing would have to be removed.  That doesn't mean the wing needs to be removed for rot repair. Rot usually happens at the area's inboard at flap brackets.  It's strange it's left and not right side, It's usually the right side that falls apart because the wing walk area take abuse from getting in and out of the airplane over the years of use.  Wood glue joints coming apart and needing repair is not over concerning.  I would be very concerned with rot repair especially if rot is at the main and rear spar.  If you want a wood wing Mooney then I would find one that doesn't have a history of rot.

My apologies I was reading two different repairs. One the wing was removed and another where they repaired wood on the left wing. The repair was done in 89 and the wing was removed for additional repairs in 97.

[kerry]

Sorry, I just reread your last post.  For some reason I read left side, and you said entry side.

[Mooney Newb]

22 minutes ago, Schllc said:

You appear to really want this plane so let me say this. 
If this is the one that scratches your itch go for it. 
You may get burned, but the odds are against that with the history you describe.  
will it have its unique challenges? Absolutely!  
But that’s ok too.  An airplane, for most ga pilots anyway I hope, it’s a romantic adventure as well. 
A plane is an expensive and completely discretionary purchase. If you do not love it, you will resent its demands. 
So if this one is calling to you, buy it and enjoy the experience. 

 

It’s low hours on the frame and half tbo on the engine (tach time not years). It’s a great looking plane, it’s fast with a low fuel burn per hour, its cost is much lower than pipers and Cessnas in its same class. The price being low id imagine is due to not many people wanting a wood winged plane, especially because they had to have all other tails replaced due to a delaminating causing a fatality. I’m not looking at resale but I also don’t want to spend 100k fixing this to fly when I can spend 50 to 90 on a mid hour Cessna or piper. There’s an allure to a quick low hour fuel efficient plane that is not the norm, however I also have not won the lottery and and not financing a museum, I will fly this a lot. 

[EricJ]

17 minutes ago, Mooney Newb said:

 

It’s low hours on the frame and half tbo on the engine (tach time not years). It’s a great looking plane, it’s fast with a low fuel burn per hour, its cost is much lower than pipers and Cessnas in its same class. The price being low id imagine is due to not many people wanting a wood winged plane, especially because they had to have all other tails replaced due to a delaminating causing a fatality. I’m not looking at resale but I also don’t want to spend 100k fixing this to fly when I can spend 50 to 90 on a mid hour Cessna or piper. There’s an allure to a quick low hour fuel efficient plane that is not the norm, however I also have not won the lottery and and not financing a museum, I will fly this a lot. 

The panel is also very antiquated.   You'll want to make sure it has functional ADS-B-out, as that transponder won't be doing it.  You'll likely be spending money on the panel before long, especially if you do fly it a lot.

The wood wing can be a blessing or a curse.   Make sure this one is on the good side.

[Mooney Newb]

55 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The panel is also very antiquated.   You'll want to make sure it has functional ADS-B-out, as that transponder won't be doing it.  You'll likely be spending money on the panel before long, especially if you do fly it a lot.

The wood wing can be a blessing or a curse.   Make sure this one is on the good side.

It had ads-b-out installed in 2023 I believe reading the maint logs. It also looks like the previous owner of 18 years is willing to give intro lessons to the plane, I’m told he flew it with these instruments ifr. I’m not sure if that’s possible as I’m starting ifr training next week. My ifr instructor is also willing to train additionally in this plane should I buy it, however he has not seen the instruments yet. 

[Rwsavory]

You will need an IFR GPS unit to do any useful instrument flying outside of training. And for all practical purposes, you really need to have training on that as well.

[Mooney Newb]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

You will need an IFR GPS unit to do any useful instrument flying outside of training. And for all practical purposes, you really need to have training on that as well.

Yeah the school I am training at has glass displays to train ifr. That’s why I was surprised that the previous owner flew ifr in it. 

[Andy95W]

11 hours ago, Mooney Newb said:

Yeah the school I am training at has glass displays to train ifr. That’s why I was surprised that the previous owner flew ifr in it. 

You’d be surprised at what we used to fly IFR in, and not that long ago either.

[AndreiC]

I used to own a Cherokee 140 with one VOR/ILS head and a second nav com with VOR indicator only. I did my IFR training in it, and got my instrument ticket with it. It would still be legal to fly that thing IFR.

But that was long before RNAV approaches became common. Nowadays if you actually want to use your instrument ticket you really want to have a GPS navigator certified for LPV approaches. Almost every small airport has got RNAV approaches and nothing else. Without that GPS you will be stuck with shooting ILS approaches to big airports, or go to the few airports that still have a VOR approach.

[Desertfox]

I flew n6036x and put 32 hours on it immediately following my ppl. I found it at an auction in a tiny town in BFe. Took about 5k to ensure airworthiness. Loved the plane, didn't have adsb and was 100% stock panel. You can't put gfc500 in it. Honestly if it was able I'd still be flying it. The wood wings never scared me. Now that I have 350 hours on my C with modern panel. 

I loved the A. It needs a hanger and you need someone with some knowledge of fabric and wood.  I even had a spare wing to go with mine.  Last I knew a&p had it in NC. Dunno what happened to it.