Dukes Gear Set Market Survey

[MikeOH]

Ok, the recent discussion, and 'bad news', in another thread prompts this poll.

If gear sets (either 20:1 or 40:1) were available TODAY, and there was NOT any present issue with your Dukes actuator, you would order a spare TODAY if it was priced at what amount?  I'm trying to establish a very rough idea of SAM.

 

[KSMooniac]

I'll start with 1 AMU for a 40:1 set.

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[MikeOH]

16 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I'll start with 1 AMU for a 40:1 set.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk
 

Please vote in the poll so I can track.  Thanks

[KSMooniac]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Please vote in the poll so I can track.  Thanks

Sorry, didn't see a poll viewing thru Tapatalk.  Voted now

[1967 427]

I understand that the gear sets are not eligible to be produced under the Vintage Aircraft Replacement and Modification Article (VARMA) program, and please forgive me if I am missing something here.  I suspect that the gears themselves are the easy part, they are probably standard off-the-shelf (from Boston Gears) or one of the many manufacturers.  The assumable difficult part would be one or many of the unique shafts that were probably custom designed and were outsourced by Mooney.  Aeromotors in Wisconsin already has reversed, engineered and manufactured shafts for fuel pumps.  Shafts and bearings are already right up their alley. Wouldn’t be a big leap for them to source gear sets, and overhaul these as an another line of business for them.

Just my two cents from a C owner.

[Shiroyuki]

How much effort would it require to produce an STC with a replacement accuator?

i doubt the part itself is something complex, probably can be manufactured for 500$ without the certification or Pma cost…

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

How much effort would it require to produce an STC with a replacement accuator?

i doubt the part itself is something complex, probably can be manufactured for 500$ without the certification or Pma cost…

Good luck producing an aviation quality ultra reliable low volume actuator for $500.

Just the NRE for that actuator will be hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have to spread that over how many actuators a year you are going to sell?

The actuator will have a custom motor, custom gearbox, custom screw. Do you think you and your vendors will be able to support these new actuators 50 years from now?

[201Steve]

@1967 427 great point. Like the exhaust system, any bit of the gear pair used could be a repair. 
 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

14 hours ago, 1967 427 said:

I understand that the gear sets are not eligible to be produced under the Vintage Aircraft Replacement and Modification Article (VARMA) program, and please forgive me if I am missing something here.  I suspect that the gears themselves are the easy part, they are probably standard off-the-shelf (from Boston Gears) or one of the many manufacturers.  The assumable difficult part would be one or many of the unique shafts that were probably custom designed and were outsourced by Mooney.  Aeromotors in Wisconsin already has reversed, engineered and manufactured shafts for fuel pumps.  Shafts and bearings are already right up their alley. Wouldn’t be a big leap for them to source gear sets, and overhaul these as an another line of business for them.

Just my two cents from a C owner.

You are correct. I’m sure they got PMA for the new parts they are making. They or anybody else could get a PMA for new gears.

They would have an advantage because they already have a quality system in place. That is half the battle.

[201Steve]

@Matthew P maybe present your demand findings to a few PMA mfgs to gauge the interest. Maybe there are ones that would be more aligned with this kind of part?

[201Steve]

A quick search yields quite a bunch of companies looking to replicate parts under PMA. Here is one such example. https://www.aec-inc.com/solve-your-part-problem.html

[MikeOH]

On 12/25/2024 at 5:57 PM, 1967 427 said:

I understand that the gear sets are not eligible to be produced under the Vintage Aircraft Replacement and Modification Article (VARMA) program, and please forgive me if I am missing something here.  I suspect that the gears themselves are the easy part, they are probably standard off-the-shelf (from Boston Gears) or one of the many manufacturers.  The assumable difficult part would be one or many of the unique shafts that were probably custom designed and were outsourced by Mooney.  Aeromotors in Wisconsin already has reversed, engineered and manufactured shafts for fuel pumps.  Shafts and bearings are already right up their alley. Wouldn’t be a big leap for them to source gear sets, and overhaul these as an another line of business for them.

Just my two cents from a C owner.

I think you are correct WRT VARMA.  I was thinking PMA to just the worm gear set.  As you say, that's the easy part.  Those are also the parts that wear and, supposedly, fail.  I spent some time searching for OTS sets that match without success.  Nevertheless, there are several manufacturers that could produce these in low volume at pretty low cost (a few hundred dollars); they advertise they can customize shafts as the Duke's one does appear to be unique based on their catalog items.

Going to need a DER, but not sure what else is involved in getting a PMA for something like this.

[MikeOH]

12 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are correct. I’m sure they got PMA for the new parts they are making. They or anybody else could get a PMA for new gears.

They would have an advantage because they already have a quality system in place. That is half the battle.

@N201MKTurbo

Do you know what quality system standard is required?  Is an AS9100 approval satisfactory?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

@N201MKTurbo

Do you know what quality system standard is required?  Is an AS9100 approval satisfactory?

Just read the PMA procedures. I have posted them before. They aren’t hard to find.

[EricJ]

On 12/25/2024 at 6:57 PM, 1967 427 said:

I understand that the gear sets are not eligible to be produced under the Vintage Aircraft Replacement and Modification Article (VARMA) program, and please forgive me if I am missing something here.  I suspect that the gears themselves are the easy part, they are probably standard off-the-shelf (from Boston Gears) or one of the many manufacturers.  The assumable difficult part would be one or many of the unique shafts that were probably custom designed and were outsourced by Mooney.  Aeromotors in Wisconsin already has reversed, engineered and manufactured shafts for fuel pumps.  Shafts and bearings are already right up their alley. Wouldn’t be a big leap for them to source gear sets, and overhaul these as an another line of business for them.

Just my two cents from a C owner.

FWIW, VARMA isn't a manufacturing or production authorization, it is just a means to get an official letter from the FAA reflecting authorization of a part to be installed on a particular aircraft.   The purpose of the letter is just to prevent somebody else making you take the part off later because they think it's not legal.   There are no new authorizations or parts approvals under VARMA, it is just a documentation of authorization.   So if somebody were to properly produce/substitute/whatever a new gear set via one of the allowed methods it could be documented with a VARMA letter to keep a subsequent IA from saying it's not legit.

[PT20J]

Hmmm. The number of individuals interested in purchasing a gear set seems to have dwindled substantially from the original 100+ 

[N201MKTurbo]

I imagine the demand for these gear sets is very low. 
 

Seeing that LASAR is the top repair station for these actuators, It would be interesting to ask LASAR how many sets they have on order and how many they would use a year.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Hmmm. The number of individuals interested in purchasing a gear set seems to have dwindled substantially from the original 100+ 

Exactly why I created this poll.  My gut told me the market is REALLY small.  I don't have a clue how many gear sets get inspected and fail inspection every year.  Whether that's because they aren't getting inspected, or that they all pass...don't have a clue on that, either.

I'd think the same, or even less, would be true for the no-back spring issue but the fact LASAR is offering them...???

[Echo]

On 12/27/2024 at 1:47 PM, PT20J said:

Hmmm. The number of individuals interested in purchasing a gear set seems to have dwindled substantially from the original 100+ 

Not every vintage Mooney owner is on Mooneyspace hourly, daily, weekly, monthly...

[tcal780]

I spent just under $3k 2 years ago for my 40:1 set from lasar. The original set lasted 52 years, so I'm hoping for the same. That said, I voted $1k to have a spare set on hand just simply because these are so scarce. I do think it's vital to have these available for the fleet.

[MikeOH]

@tcal780

Do you recall if you purchased from LASAR when Paul Lowen still owned it?  I can't recall when he sold the biz.

[Schllc]

12 hours ago, Echo said:

Not every vintage Mooney owner is on Mooneyspace hourly, daily, weekly, monthly...

This is very true, but it’s also likely the first place they visit when looking for help with an obscure Mooney issue or part.   That is how I found mooneyspace…

[tcal780]

21 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@tcal780

Do you recall if you purchased from LASAR when Paul Lowen still owned it?  I can't recall when he sold the biz.

Not sure. I do know it was before they moved to OR.

[1980Mooney]

21 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@tcal780

Do you recall if you purchased from LASAR when Paul Lowen still owned it?  I can't recall when he sold the biz.

 

13 hours ago, Schllc said:

This is very true, but it’s also likely the first place they visit when looking for help with an obscure Mooney issue or part.   That is how I found mooneyspace…

Yup - first place to look for answers to obscure Mooney questions like “when he (Lowen) sold the biz”…..

 

[Matthew P]

On 12/27/2024 at 11:19 AM, EricJ said:

FWIW, VARMA isn't a manufacturing or production authorization, it is just a means to get an official letter from the FAA reflecting authorization of a part to be installed on a particular aircraft.   The purpose of the letter is just to prevent somebody else making you take the part off later because they think it's not legal.   There are no new authorizations or parts approvals under VARMA, it is just a documentation of authorization.   So if somebody were to properly produce/substitute/whatever a new gear set via one of the allowed methods it could be documented with a VARMA letter to keep a subsequent IA from saying it's not legit.

NOT according to the FAA in regards to Category One Parts.