Avoiding baggage door opening

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

You don't have to get the Medeco locks from Aircraft Security, you can go down to any local Medeco locksmith and get them and have them installed as a minor alteration.

Yes.  I went with them as they are familiar with airplanes.

And when I thought I lost my keys, I called them,, went through some verification and got some more sent.  And of course immediately found the others.

 

[daytonabch04]

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS lock your baggage door before flight AND give it a tug to ensure it is shut/locked.  I'm speaking from personal experience, and have had it happen cruising at 6k... Luckily, mine did not depart the aircraft and the hinge was strong enough to stay on, but it did crinkle up the metal baggage door and have to be reskinned.

 

[Max Clark]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

How many baggage doors have actually departed the aircraft?  I keep hearing about the UK one, but only that one.  And if others departed, did any wrap around the stab like the UK one?

The seller of my plane had it happen to him. So I know of one, and have the dent to prove it.

[McMooney]

I latch the thing and check when getting in the plane, never had an issue. 

[Andy95W]

I wonder if there’s a difference in mechanisms between the vintage models and later ones.

My M20C latch pins are such a tight friction fit that there is no way -seriously, NO WAY- that it can come open by itself, as long as it was properly closed and fully latched before departure.

And since I added an emergency exit pull to mine that only works if it’s unlocked, I’m going to keep leaving mine unlocked but checked (and double-checked) before flights.  

[McMooney]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I wonder if there’s a difference in mechanisms between the vintage models and later ones.

My M20C latch pins are such a tight friction fit that there is no way -seriously, NO WAY- that it can come open by itself, as long as it was properly closed and fully latched before departure.

And since I added an emergency exit pull to mine that only works if it’s unlocked, I’m going to keep leaving mine unlocked but checked (and double-checked) before flights.  

same for mine,  not easy to open thte thing when you want, if it comes open after being properly latched, something probably took half the plane with it

[kortopates]

How hard it is to open the latch isn’t relevant. Try the following, with the door fully open, and the handle latched, press in on each pin. it will open, sometimes without much force.


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[Will.iam]

4 hours ago, Max Clark said:

The seller of my plane had it happen to him. So I know of one, and have the dent to prove it.

That previous owner is the one that talked to me when i first got my mooney and because of the rough runway we live on it can “pop” the latch open as he experienced. I thanked him for his experience and wrote in my checklist to lock and verify the baggage door. Every time i question whether or not i did it or can’t remember locking the door i then think am i willing to bet $1k on the state i think the door is in and that gets me back out to recheck the door. Out of the 10 times i have rechecked once it was indeed not locked so still worth it for me to verify it is indeed locked. 

[47U]

8 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Locking it forces you to close it, but has anybody ever had an unlocked baggage door open that was actually closed?

I had a relative that owned a ‘62C back in the 1980s and the baggage door opened on him when he hit some severe turbulence on descent over the foothills east of San Diego.  The door did not unlatch.  The sun had set and it was dark… but VFR.   He speculated he transitioned through some kind of on-shore flow wind shear.  The door was tweaked, but did not depart the airframe.  I was stationed at Mather AFB at the time and he had me scrounge the yard at Kenny Faeth’s for a replacement door.  I sent him one, but being the doors are hand-fitted, ultimately it was less work for his A&P to reskin his original baggage door and tweak it back into shape.  

Looking at my ‘63C, I cannot imagine how much fuselage flex would be required to unseat the baggage door latch pins.  I also have a lot of friction on the pins to close the latch, to the point I have to apply some pressure on the door to more easily engage the pins in the strike plates.  I installed a lanyard and don’t lock my baggage door.  I installed the lanyard to pull aft and it’s at the aft end of the door next to the hat rack.  Much less likely rear seat pax would be inclined to touch it.

Perhaps the amount of travel of the latch pins should be investigated to make sure they fully engage the plates on the fuselage.  I don’t think there’s any adjustment for throw (on the vintage birds anyway), but if the linkage gets worn, perhaps there is a risk of the pin(s) not fully engaging.

[kortopates]

That previous owner is the one that talked to me when i first got my mooney and because of the rough runway we live on it can “pop” the latch open as he experienced. I thanked him for his experience and wrote in my checklist to lock and verify the baggage door. Every time i question whether or not i did it or can’t remember locking the door i then think am i willing to bet $1k on the state i think the door is in and that gets me back out to recheck the door. Out of the 10 times i have rechecked once it was indeed not locked so still worth it for me to verify it is indeed locked. 

Great reasoning, but the stakes are much higher than $1K. A new baggage door will run more like $5K not counting painting it. Just saying…


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[AJ88V]

17 hours ago, kortopates said:

How hard it is to open the latch isn’t relevant. Try the following, with the door fully open, and the handle latched, press in on each pin. it will open, sometimes without much force.

I will test this next time I'm down at the plane.

Don't know if the latch could come open from a rough landing, but by that point it's unlikely to be a safety of flight issue.

11 hours ago, kortopates said:

Great reasoning, but the stakes are much higher than $1K. A new baggage door will run more like $5K not counting painting it. Just saying…
 

Very very true.  I took off once with the baggage door open and knew it immediately.  Unlike an unlocked cabin door which you couldn't push open in flight if you wanted to, the baggage door will fly wide open like a sail - and bend if it stays attached.  Flying for me was a non problem, but the embarrassment for being an idiot remains.  So does the cost of repair.  The door itself closed fine afterwards, but there was distortion around the hinge and that cost money too.

This discussion has been very useful to me.  As Paul and others have said, maybe the risk of flying unlocked outweighs any chance of being trapped by a jammed door and a locked luggage door.  I'm slowly being persuaded.

[201Mooniac]

The previous owner of my M20J had the door pop open on the takeoff roll.  He aborted and the door has a very slight crease from it that reminds me to lock it each time .  I did forget once and wondered the entire flight (I remembered on the climb out) if it would pop open, luckily it didn't.  This past weekend just after takeoff my wife asked if the baggage door was latched, she had watched me lock it but wasn't sure, I appreciated the double check but asked her to remind em before takeoff

[AJ88V]

BTW, when my luggage door flew open, I lost my "Little John" bottle.  Looked all around the airport for it.  Still haven't replaced it. LOL!

[BravoWhiskey]

I always lock the luggage door on my way into the plane.  So far that hasn’t popped open on me…

now if I could find a way to remember to close the oil trap door on the cowling before I put my seatbelt on I’ll be in good shape.

[ArtVandelay]

I always lock the luggage door on my way into the plane.  So far that hasn’t popped open on me…
now if I could find a way to remember to close the oil trap door on the cowling before I put my seatbelt on I’ll be in good shape.

Add it to your preflight check list?

[Pinecone]

I close it after checking the oil.  I also open the door and open the oil filler (Continental) to let out all the steam (if in my hangar).  So I always need to close it

But if you forget to check the oil ...........

[Slick Nick]

I’m relatively new to the Mooney platform, is a properly latched cargo door at risk of opening itself in flight? To date, I haven’t locked mine for flight, just made sure the handle was flush.

[IvanP]

I am curious as to what has to fail and how for a properly latched baggage door to open mid-flight without any input from someone (e.g., accidentally activating the emergency release, etc.) and how would locking the door prevent such failure and opening of the door. I always give the door a good tug on the handle and it does not budge one bit if latched properly. I had the mechanism apart on a Bravo recently and I can see the possibility, albeit small, of the tiny cotter pin(s) failing/falling out which could arguably release the locking pins if the connecting rods were to separate, but I do not see how locking the door would prevent this. If the connecting rods separate, the key lock is not stopping anything. Complete separation of the mechanism does not appear likely, though. 

My guess is that the situations of mid-flight door opening are caused by imporperly latched door, either due to operator error or possibly because of misadjusted mechanism or excessive wear and tear thereof. If the pins are not extending fully into the receiving brackets or if there is excessive play in the mechanism, I can see this happen. Will locking impropely adjusted baggae door take out the excessive play and prevent the opening mid-flight? 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I’m relatively new to the Mooney platform, is a properly latched cargo door at risk of opening itself in flight? To date, I haven’t locked mine for flight, just made sure the handle was flush.

All the stories here seem to be anecdotal, so I wouldn't take anything too seriously.   If unlocked, properly latched doors coming open was really an issue I think there'd be a lot more data after sixty years of fleet operation.    The modification that Mooney made later in production was to allow the door to be opened from the inside, not to address doors coming open inadvertently, so I suspect it wasn't on the radar as a serious issue.

I've had mine apart, and added an inside pull so that it could be opened from the inside, since mine didn't have that.   Mine did come open once, but it was because it was only latched about halfway and I didn't catch it.   Personally I don't think a properly maintained latch that is fully latched will come open.   I've never seen mine come partially unlatched after a flight, and I've never heard of anyone else noticing that, either.   

[PT20J]

As @kortopates pointed out above, if you push on the pins with the door open but the handle in the locked position, some will spring open with little force. Some I have checked take a lot of pressure. So, there is variation between airplanes and the mechanism has no adjustments. There is a spring the holds the pins either closed or open depending on the position of the handle and perhaps some springs are weak.

It's also good to lube the piano hinge occasionally. Otherwise it will wear and be more likely to fail if the door does somehow open in flight.

[aviatoreb]

On 11/3/2024 at 10:45 PM, kortopates said:

 

Actually many of us consider it essential and most of the Mooney PPP instructors won’t fly with you unless it is locked simply because we have seen many baggage doors open in flight causing damage over the years - but never seen a verified locked door open in flight. If it opens in cruise it’s going to depart the aircraft and likely do damage in flight. Just a few years ago a UK pilot had that happen and the door got wedged in the elevator making the aircraft very difficult to control. But luckily there was a large grass field directly below them that enabled them to safely make an emergency landing.
You can read about it here on Mooneyspace.


Then contrast the great many doors that have opened on the runway and in flight with how often the baggage door was used by first responders to rescue a crew member - that’s a zero to the best of my knowledge. Every rescue i’ve seen the roof was literally cut off, neck braces put on and then they were carefully lifted out of the cockpit on a backboard.
Even with the gear going through the wing, the door is still openable.

i do know of a couple cases where the baggage door was used for self rescue when after landing they couldn’t get the door to open and there was no one around to hand the keys too through the storm window to have someone unlock it for you. But that’s due to a bad lock that needs replacing. These are only $5 Chicago cabinet locks unless you upgrade them to more secure Medco locks, as i have done on mine after i had to get rescued on the ground due to a bad lock.

All of the modern mooney’s have a factory mechanism to open a locked baggage door from the inside. But what you describe is a great option for similar method to unlock from inside the vintage mooney’s. Just not as secure as the factory method.

Personally i suggest you reconsider and make it a habit to lock your baggage door before every flight.


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When does that modern mooney era begin?  Starting with which models?

[FlyingScot]

After @kortopates raised this with me at my last PPP, I always lock it and I added it to the checklist. I know it is supposed to be an emergency exit, but I can’t find - and I did do some searching – any Mooney accident report where it was reported that it was used in this way.  But I did find several that referenced the door opening in flight.   

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

When does that modern mooney era begin?  Starting with which models?

Most everyone follows the same convention that Mooneyspace forum uses, meaning with the J model. But there are several things that contributed besides a seemingly arbitrary model year such as the important change to the GAMA standardized POH format in '76 

[Will.iam]

On 11/5/2024 at 4:57 PM, Slick Nick said:

I’m relatively new to the Mooney platform, is a properly latched cargo door at risk of opening itself in flight? To date, I haven’t locked mine for flight, just made sure the handle was flush.

Are you willing to pay the $1k to fix it if it does? Mine has not popped open but when my neighbor’s ovation did pop open and cost him $1k to repair. That was enough incentive to lock my baggage door for every flight. Low effort to do with a low probability but high money loss if it does.