Anyone got experience clearing a title?

[FloridaMan]

It looks like somebody forgot to send in some paperwork. The AOPA title search came back clear. The previous owner's title search came back clear when he bought the airplane 20 years ago. I'm financing part of the airplane and the bank's title search shows a Chattel Mortgage from 1968 between an aircraft dealer and Mooney Aircraft, and it's been assigned to a bank that was dissolved in the mid 1970s. All of the officers that I could find are deceased. 

MAPA has been more than helpful in the few minutes I spoke with them. Apparently this used to happen a lot several years ago and that they thought all of these had been resolved. I guess I got one of the lucky airplanes that has made it 45 years without the CM being discovered. As I understand it, it had something to do with how airplanes were initially sold. Being that the CM exists between an aircraft dealer and Mooney Aircraft, I assume that it existed to protect title of the asset during the sales process. In my case, the merchant is in the "By" field and Mooney is in the "To" field, with AirBanc of America in the "Assigned." There is also a certificate of repossession in the file. 

I'm sure this stuff is well-beyond any statute of limitations, but it's still preventing me from getting financing. Does anyone have suggestions on how to clear this? 

[N601RX]

Aopa might be able to help since it was their title search that missed it.  The FAA office in ok might also be able to offer some advice.  They have probably saw in this or similar before.

[John Pleisse]

I wish I did, but I comment only because this is the bizarre exception publications have pointed to as neccessity for title search, literally for decades. 99% of your problem is inconsequential and 101% preventing. I wish you luck with it. I would go to AOPA as a start. Any attorney fees of, say $2k or greater ...would be prohibitive. I agree with Mike...tell your story to the FAA. You might find an empathetic do-gooder.

Good Luck. 

[Z W]

You will most likely need to run a quiet title lawsuit on the plane, or better yet, get the seller to do it, since it is his problem. Consult with an aviation attorney near you. Should be a reasonably quick and easy process, since you are correct you are probably well beyond any statute of limitations.

[gregwatts]

Had a similar issue with my purchase back in Nov. Plane was paid off but bank never released the lien. Fortunately the new bank that bought the note did write a letter on my behalf stating that the loan was indeed satisfied. This situation is not totally uncommon, but AOPA should be able to help you. The bank financing your purchase can also assist you in this matter.....if they want to make the loan.

[Cruiser]

Why did the previous two title searches not pick this up? And how did the last title search find it?

[FloridaMan]

I'm still hitting dead ends, though I'm learning more as I go along. The company it was assigned to was called AirBanc of America and was out of Missouri. I found the records of dissolution and liquidation from Missouri in 1976. Thinking it was a bank, I called the Missouri Division of Finance and learned that only a bank can be spelled "Bank" and if it's spelled "Banc," then it's not a bank in the same sense. 

I don't yet know why the AOPA title search didn't turn anything up, but I'm running out of time on my loan prequalification and I made a significant deposit on the airplane based on the title search. And I've been looking for the right airplane for years and this is it. One option a title repair company suggested is that they sell me title insurance and see if the bank would be willing to accept the title insurance to finance the airplane. If the insurance company is willing to insure a title with an unreleased document attached to it, then they must be confident that it's not going to be an issue. I would still want to get it resolved, but I'd like to have the airplane in the mean time. 

I'm going to investigate a few more leads that I found yesterday after business hours and see if they turn anything up. If not, I may turn to my subscribed AOPA legal services with my findings. 

[N601RX]

You may also find as a potential buyer you don't have the necessary legal standing needed to clear the title.  Whatever is done to clear the title will probably have to be initiated by the current registered owner who is the seller.

If the FAA doesn't have a process to deal with old liens this it is probably going to require an order from a judge to remove it. I would try calling different people at the FAA registration office until I got someone who understood the nature of the probelm and seemed interested in helping.

 

[N1026F]

I'm in agreement with Jim and 601RX: you probably don't have standing as a "potential buyer". Unless your bank will finance knowing the situation (...doubtful). At any rate, the next step would be to contact the receiver, trustee or successor in interest, and get a waiver of lien or serve them (Federal District Ct.) and obtain an order from a federal judge, that removes the cloud on the title. I'd search locally for an aviation attorney or maritime attorney on the defense side of the bar; an injury attorney won't be interested in transactional work.

That being stated, AOPA legal probably has a form...

[FloridaMan]

I spoke with an attorney earlier today. His issue was not even knowing who to serve and was baffled that the document turned up at all. For clarification: there is no lien on the registration/title. 

[N601RX]

Correct.  Airplanes don't really have a "title" like an automobile.  The lien is just a form that is sent to Ok, city and placed in the folder with your other aircraft paperwork.  I don't remember the form #, but it is very easy process to record a lien against an aircraft.  We did it one time as a private indivudal for a airplane that we owner financed as part of the sale.

[Seth]

When I purchased my F Model in 2008, the title check came back clean.  When I sold it in 2011, there was a hit from a previous lien for a note on the aircraft.  It turns out very similar to your that the note had been paid off, but never removed from the title, and I do not know why it turned up when I went to sell since it was from the mid 1990s and was not in my doccumentation from 2008 when I purchased the aircraft. 

My only thought is that after I purchased the airplane, some old files at the bank I won't mention were found and then sent to the FAA.  2008 was a bad economic year, and maybe an order was given to collect on any loan possible, etc . . . thought this is pure speculation.

So, before selling, as I was lucky this bank was still in existance, I walked in, demanded in a respectful manner to see the manager, and then sat in their office for three hours until they handed me a letter stating that the bank no longer had any interest in the aircraft.  The deal went smoothly from there.

Unfortunatly, the organization that had the claim is no longer in existance, so as stated by others, a judge is going to have to remove it unless someone at the FAA understands and takes care of you as a reasonable person should.

Good luck.

-Seth

[Z W]

Antares - check your PMs.

[FloridaMan]

Looks like the financing company tracked down who bought the company that bought the company that bought the company. Is there *any* risk to them having a claim on the airplane in them having not taken any actions in the past four decades? Also, it looks like it's an insurance company that owns them now and that they're not at all involved in anything finance related. What sort of letter could I get someone like that to write that should be satisfactory? 

[FloridaMan]

My goal is to close on the airplane as quickly as possible and I do not want the sale to fall through. The seller's been most helpful through this whole mess and I don't think I should stand back with my arms crossed and watch him stress over it. Just as I am in business, when a problem arises I care more about resolving it and moving forward than I worry about whose responsibility it is. 

[Lionudakis]

My title search showed the first buyer and his wife purchased (him AND her), and when he sold it only he signed it. We had to get, as well as the guy we bought it from (when he bought it in 83)  "title insurance";Because fixing the actual issue is almost impossible as an older doctor in the early sixties is likely dead. The insurance was about 300 bucks, one time fee. 

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: Antares

My goal is to close on the airplane as quickly as possible and I do not want the sale to fall through. The seller's been most helpful through this whole mess and I don't think I should stand back with my arms crossed and watch him stress over it. Just as I am in business, when a problem arises I care more about resolving it and moving forward than I worry about whose responsibility it is. 

[Pimillets]

Hello I'm having right now the same problem and I have to export the aircraft to Argentina, how you resolved the issue?? 

Thank yoj

[midlifeflyer]

13 minutes ago, Pimillets said:

Hello I'm having right now the same problem and I have to export the aircraft to Argentina, how you resolved the issue?? 

Thank yoj

Each situation like this is a little different. Sometimes a lot different. I handled one some years ago. It had a couple of strange twists.  Unless you have a buyer willing to accept the airplane with the lien sor an aircraft title company wiling to insure title despite the lien, you may be stuck with having to seek legal advice. 

The thing is, the  FAA Registry is only a federal recording office. The liens themselves are created and discharged by state law. So there may be some what to get the lien declared void even if technically there is no one to release it. 

[Pimillets]

Thank you so much, do you know someone to do that?? 

[carusoam]

A whole bunch of Mooneys got tied up by one bank that Mooney used back in the day... then the banks all got mixed up with changes of ownership and the ancient paper documents were no longer in existence....

That solution is pretty well known...

Do you know which bank is holding the title? If it is the same as these, it will make sense to see how that was handled...

 

If it is a different bank...  ecause many banks have had difficulty through the decades of keeping track of old paper documents...

AOPA has legal services and finance services and are familiar with these types of challenges...

Private pilot thoughts only, not a finance guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[GDGR]

Not certain if this will help or not (I’m in Canada, so could be entirely different).

The F I purchased had 3 owners. 3rd guy fled the country and lives in Texas. Also had a lien on the plane, due to a nasty divorce (if you have time to read 240 pages of court docs, I’ll be happy to send anyone the link).

Long story short, lien was removed by calling legal and the ex wife (other two owners flew and maintained the plane here), and his share of the plane was worth less than what he owed into the partnership.

Having it registered under my name (requirement for financing), was tough, as he refused to sign the bill of sale, until he was cut into the deal. 

Transport Canada told me to have the other two owners sign an Affadavit, staring that they were in control of the aircraft, were responsible for the maintenance and storage, and were unable to produce a Bill of Sale.

I sent that info to TC on a Friday, and had my C or Registration I my name Monday.

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, Pimillets said:

Thank you so much, do you know someone to do that?? 

If you are asking about a lawyer, what state are you in? (Florida, like your location?) If you have a copy of the documentation it would also help direct you.

as mentioned, if you are an AOPA member, I'd call their legal services folks. Even if you are not a legal services plan member, they might be able to direct you. If you join the plan now, it doesn't cover preexisting issues, but it usually earns you an inexpensive consult and, with some lawyers, reduced fees.

PM me if you want to discuss off-forum.

Edited January 17, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[MrRodgers]

Thank you so much, do you know someone to do that?? 

 

I purchased my plane and there was an unreleased lien from 1977. I had Aero Research work to clear the title and file all the paperwork. They did a great job and I believe it cost about $400.00 for the service. Check with AOPA. They can assist you. Good luck.

 

 

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[laytonl]

I just dealt with a similar issue last week.  My son and I just sold my father’s airplane which had been in the family for over 40 years.  The title had an issue from 1977 where the name of the owner who bought the airplane from piper didn’t exactly match the name of the guy who sold it to my father.  Aero-space reports tracked down an heir and cleared the title with an affidavit for $500.  It only took a few days.  I was amazed they where able to find an heir.  Sad to see the airplane go.  Lee