Looking to see if I fit in a m20c

[Quantum Blueberry]

Howdy! Currently working on my PPL, and I've done the math on ownership vs renting to get up to my commercial rating. Surprise surprise, its much cheaper to purchase and resell an aircraft rather than rent the whole way. That being said, from everything that I've seen on Mooneys, I'm hoping to be able to get one. I'm a bigger guy though, so I don't know if I would fit in one comfortably. Online, the width of a m20c is about the same as a 172 and I can fly that comfortably enough, but then theres also the pervasive "Mooneys are small" myth that goes around. I've read some other posts where people have said that there are people who are willing to let people sit in the cockpit to see if they fit, so I was curious how that would be arranged. Thank you!

[MikeOH]

Sorry that I'm not close nor do I own a short body but I just have to jump in on your comment, "its much cheaper to purchase and resell an aircraft rather than rent the whole way". I assume you've never owned so be careful with that thought!  Not counting all the expenses associated with the purchase and sale, there are real risks to buying that could result in BIG expenses and, more importantly, downtime if you're trying to get your ratings in a timely fashion.  Over the last 7 years of ownership I've averaged $18K per year, all in, for about 75 hours/year.  If a rental plane is out of service there's going to be another ready to go.  NOT so if you own!  What happens if your aircraft is down for maintenance?  Are you going to end up renting anyway?  Just food for thought.  I'm sure there will be others along to tell you to buy!

Good luck!

[DXB]

47 minutes ago, Quantum Blueberry said:

Howdy! Currently working on my PPL, and I've done the math on ownership vs renting to get up to my commercial rating. Surprise surprise, its much cheaper to purchase and resell an aircraft rather than rent the whole way. That being said, from everything that I've seen on Mooneys, I'm hoping to be able to get one. I'm a bigger guy though, so I don't know if I would fit in one comfortably. Online, the width of a m20c is about the same as a 172 and I can fly that comfortably enough, but then theres also the pervasive "Mooneys are small" myth that goes around. I've read some other posts where people have said that there are people who are willing to let people sit in the cockpit to see if they fit, so I was curious how that would be arranged. Thank you!

If you fit in a 172, you'll fit in a Mooney (and find a ton more fun and utility in flying the latter). The seating position is just different - think kitchen table vs. sports car.  It's not an ideal plane for getting a PPL - it certainly can be done in one if you find a competent instructor who is willing to give you primary training in it, but the added complexity will slow down your progress. 

[201er]

A bigger question is how you manage getting in and out. If you have a hard time getting in and out of the skyhawk, the Mooney will be a disaster. If you’re comfy in a skyhawk and getting in and out is a non-issue, the Mooney is reasonably in play as a post Private Pilot plane to own.

For the purpose of training, it would be a big disadvantage. Mooney isn’t a trainer. Unlikely to save money either.

[Quantum Blueberry]

21 minutes ago, DXB said:

If you fit in a 172, you'll fit in a Mooney (and find a ton more fun and utility in flying the latter). The seating position is just different - think kitchen table vs. sports car.  It's not an ideal plane for getting a PPL - it certainly can be done in one if you find a competent instructor who is willing to give you primary training in it, but the added complexity will slow down your progress. 

Got it, and I can comfortably get in and out of a 172 pretty easily, took me a little while to figure out the little tricks but at this point it takes about 2 seconds longer than getting in and out of a car, which is to say no time at all. If the internal fit is about the same +/- getting out I shouldn't have any problems, other than just learning the little tricks that you pick up over time. I plan to finish out my PPL before even considering pulling the trigger on buying anything however, especially given that from what I've seen of mooneys they require very good energy management on final approach due to having very little drag once in ground effect, and I know for a fact that I won't be there until a bit after I finish out my PPL.

[Quantum Blueberry]

12 minutes ago, 201er said:

A bigger question is how you manage getting in and out. If you have a hard time getting in and out of the skyhawk, the Mooney will be a disaster. If you’re comfy in a skyhawk and getting in and out is a non-issue, the Mooney is reasonably in play as a post Private Pilot plane to own.

For the purpose of training, it would be a big disadvantage. Mooney isn’t a trainer. Unlikely to save money either.

Out of curiosity do you mean a trainer in terms of PPL training, or in terms of other types of training such as IFR/Commercial. The main plan was to finish out my PPL and get my complex endorsements on 172's and 172RG's that my current flight school has. After that for my IFR and commercial get the plane, and just also build hours and do cross countries and other more complex training in it after I finish my PPL. If its not good for any training and is more of a "go places and do things" vs "know how to fly and do whatever (not sure if this is worded correctly)" only type of plane I hadn't seen that in the research I've done and would be very valuable to know. Thanks!

[201er]

24 minutes ago, Quantum Blueberry said:

Out of curiosity do you mean a trainer in terms of PPL training, or in terms of other types of training such as IFR/Commercial. The main plan was to finish out my PPL and get my complex endorsements on 172's and 172RG's that my current flight school has. After that for my IFR and commercial get the plane, and just also build hours and do cross countries and other more complex training in it after I finish my PPL. If its not good for any training and is more of a "go places and do things" vs "know how to fly and do whatever (not sure if this is worded correctly)" only type of plane I hadn't seen that in the research I've done and would be very valuable to know. Thanks!

That’s a good plan. 
 

Mooney isn’t a good trainer to learn how to land a plane on. It has about the worst (in terms of hard landings when you don’t know what you’re doing) landing gear shock absorbers of any plane. You must land it aerodynamically and properly every time. It’s also fast which means things happen in a shorter time which makes it harder to learn and grasp everything.

After earning your private and being truly comfortable in what you learned in, Mooney is a promising choice. It’s ok for complex and IFR training. You’re not pounding it with constant landings afterall!

An M20C may not be the best IFR trainer (I’m gonna get a lot of hate for saying this) because most of them have the old cluster panels and limited avionics. If you can get an M20C with a 6 pack and GPS, then it’s great. Or, if you plan to make it your lifelong plane, then might as well learn to fly instruments with what you’ve got.

An underrated benefit of doing instrument training in a Mooney is the ability to save a lot of gas by going slow. Afterall you gotta log a bunch of hours so you may as well go as slow possible to make it take longer. You still end up flying faster than a skyhawk while burning a lot less gas. In my J I was doing 120ktas on like 6gph while instrument training.

I did my instrument and commercial in my J and it was worth it. But I would never recommend primary training in one.

[201er]

And here’s a video I did in my J of the real world measurements. Of course the J is a mid body and 10” longer than a short body C. However, to my understanding, the front seat room and amount the front seats slide back is the same. The only difference is that the rear seat occupant has to be a child or they could end up an amputee if you side back suddenly.

 

Edited August 30 by 201er

[Hank]

33 minutes ago, 201er said:

An M20C may not be the best IFR trainer (I’m gonna get a lot of hate for saying this) because most of them have the old cluster panels and limited avionics. If you can get an M20C with a 6 pack and GPS, then it’s great....

I did my instrument and commercial in my J and it was worth it. But I would never recommend primary training in one.

Every M20-C built beginning in 1969 has a factory six pack. That's 1969-1977. Many of the older ones have been updated.

Mooneys are great for Instrument training. I did that in my C, and yes, fuel burn is much lower. My C will make the same trip as friends in a 172, saving about 30% of their flight time on 10% less fuel; if I slow down and run with them, fuel savings would be significantly more!

Good luck with everything! Let us know how you do.

[201er]

5 minutes ago, Hank said:

Every M20-C built beginning in 1969 has a factory six pack. That's 1969-1977. Many of the older ones have been updated.

Yeah, but they weren’t making so many by then. They built as many Cs in 1962 as that entire 1969-1977 period combined. Not to mention 300+ per year for most years up to 1965.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Yeah, but they weren’t making so many by then. They built as many Cs in 1962 as that entire 1969-1977 period combined. Not to mention 300+ per year for most years up to 1965.

I'll take your word on it--my MAPA notebook is downstairs. But it's still a data point for the OP.

[Quantum Blueberry]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Every M20-C built beginning in 1969 has a factory six pack. That's 1969-1977. Many of the older ones have been updated.

Mooneys are great for Instrument training. I did that in my C, and yes, fuel burn is much lower. My C will make the same trip as friends in a 172, saving about 30% of their flight time on 10% less fuel; if I slow down and run with them, fuel savings would be significantly more!

Good luck with everything! Let us know how you do.

I'm currently window shopping on both controller and trade-a-plane, right now I have my eye on a m20c ranger that has a full 6 pack, with the heading indicator replaced by a G5 and with the newest gen of Garmin GPS units, plus a basic autopilot. Its older than the factory included 6 pack models, but it has everything needed as far as I can tell given that its listed as being IFR rated and the current owner claims to fly IFR decently often. I guess I'll just ask here since the topic has shifted slightly, but what priority should be given to paintjob/interiors vs equipped avionics? The one I'm looking at is very well equipped for the price with about 700 hrs SMOH, but the paintjob and interiors are a bit more iffy, meanwhile theres one very close in price thats also a m20c ranger that has the inverse issue of having less advanced avionics but having a very clean interior and a really nice paintjob thats only about a year or two old. It has similar engine times. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, thanks again!

[Z W]

I got my instrument in a M20C with a 6-pack panel and a 430 GPS.  It's a great platform for that.

Paint vs interior vs panel is pretty much your choice.  You pay for each one, either when you buy the plane or when you have it done.  Getting any of them done right now is very difficult even if you have the money.  Shops are busy, wait times are long, and the job takes longer than it should, because the shops are all short-staffed.

If you want to go straight into your instrument rating, which is a great idea, I'd stretch your budget to get a plane that you can use and live with upgrade-free until that's done so it doesn't interrupt your training.  There will still be a risk that unplanned maintenance will do it, but at least you aren't planning on it.  Once you're done with the instrument, you'll know what you value most - paint, interior, or panel - and can pick if/when you want to put the plane down for a couple months to improve each one.

[AJ88V]

Really, the Mooney is NOT a trainer.  Even an old C model is way faster than most trainers and part of learning to fly is to get ahead of the airplane.  It would be different if your father already owns an Mooney and offered to let you earn your PPL in it, but you haven’t even sat in one.  

As others have said, the cost risk of owning an airplane is very high. Do your training in a rented 152 or a 172 and the total bounded cost is $8K to $12K, done!  If you really know you want to own a low wing plane, one of the Piper or Diamond aircraft might make a better trainer for you - the cost will be about the same. And remember, a LOT of that rental cost is just aviation fuel, so the actual cost of the plane rental itself (the ‘lost’ investment opportunity cost) is really more like $3K to $5K.

All small airplanes are pretty cool. I would jump at the chance of flying a friend’s C152 (or a 140 better yet!).  A 172 is meh (Camry), but it’s an astoundingly great airplane with a great safety record and a perfect trainer- and I’d be delighted to fly that too.

You can worry about your dream airplane after getting your PPL. Good luck!

 

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, AJ88V said:

Really, the Mooney is NOT a trainer.  Even an old C model is way faster than most trainers and part of learning to fly is to get ahead of the airplane.  It would be different if your father already owns an Mooney and offered to let you earn your PPL in it, but you haven’t even sat in one.  

As others have said, the cost risk of owning an airplane is very high. Do your training in a rented 152 or a 172 and the total bounded cost is $8K to $12K, done!  If you really know you want to own a low wing plane, one of the Piper or Diamond aircraft might make a better trainer for you - the cost will be about the same. And remember, a LOT of that rental cost is just aviation fuel, so the actual cost of the plane rental itself (the ‘lost’ investment opportunity cost) is really more like $3K to $5K.

All small airplanes are pretty cool. I would jump at the chance of flying a friend’s C152 (or a 140 better yet!).  A 172 is meh (Camry), but it’s an astoundingly great airplane with a great safety record and a perfect trainer- and I’d be delighted to fly that too.

You can worry about your dream airplane after getting your PPL. Good luck!

 

Did you read what was written??????

He is finishing his PP and looking to buy to do his IR and CP and build time.

[Quantum Blueberry]

Just a slight update, I took my PPL knowledge test today and I passed with 97%, its a small step but at the very least now I just have to focus on finishing out my cross countries and stuff and getting my complex enforcement after my PPL is done. Long story short, very exited!

 

As stated prior, I don't plan to purchase anything until after finishing out my PPL, since I know that mooneys aren't as forgiving on landings and energy management is also very important otherwise you'll float. However, given that I'll need to build 200+ hrs for my IFR and commercial ratings, and most of that price is fuel, I can fly slower and drive down the price/hr. Or if I need to get somewhere fast, then I can use the mooney speed to get there also. Based on what other people have said, as long as what I buy is IFR rated, it should hopefully serve me pretty well for that.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Quantum Blueberry said:

As stated prior, I don't plan to purchase anything until after finishing out my PPL ... However, given that I'll need to build 200+ hrs for my IFR and commercial ratings, and most of that price is fuel, I can fly slower and drive down the price/hr. Or if I need to get somewhere fast, then I can use the mooney speed to get there also. Based on what other people have said, as long as what I buy is IFR rated, it should hopefully serve me pretty well for that.

I "found" my M20-C as I was beginning the XC phase of my PPL. It was a distraction, but I put it out of my mind until I finished up and had that great temporary license in my hand. 

THEN I got serious with the seller, did the test flight, inspection, rather more paperwork than I had expected, and five weeks after my check ride, I was a Mooney owner.

Hope everything works out for you! Go ahead and start plane shopping, it will likely take you a while to find a good one. And finish up thise last nagging flight requirements. While the solo felt great, and was a huge stepping stone and confidence boost, finishing that first solo XC made me feel like a real pilot. Just wait for that Long XC! Fun times!

[AJ88V]

21 hours ago, Pinecone said:

He is finishing his PP and looking to buy to do his IR and CP and build time.

Well, now I feel like an idiot!  Thanks for clarifying.

15 hours ago, Quantum Blueberry said:

Just a slight update, I took my PPL knowledge test today and I passed with 97%, its a small step but at the very least now I just have to focus on finishing out my cross countries and stuff and getting my complex enforcement after my PPL is done. Long story short, very exited!

 

As stated prior, I don't plan to purchase anything until after finishing out my PPL, since I know that mooneys aren't as forgiving on landings and energy management is also very important otherwise you'll float. However, given that I'll need to build 200+ hrs for my IFR and commercial ratings, and most of that price is fuel, I can fly slower and drive down the price/hr. Or if I need to get somewhere fast, then I can use the mooney speed to get there also. Based on what other people have said, as long as what I buy is IFR rated, it should hopefully serve me pretty well for that.

Congrats on passing your written.  That's a big accomplishment. 

I was in the same position as a low time pilot and did make the Mooney choice.  That said, I'd estimate it took me a full year of flying to truly 'get in front of' the Mooney, but I don't regret the decision.

The Mooney has some good advantages being complex and it's a very stable platform - not the sportiest handling or most fun/agile - but stable in turbulence and easy to hand fly.

Good luck!

[bigmo]

Not to scare you away from a Mooney, but there are some really good MUCH cheaper options that will get you reliable hours, and save you oodles of $. A few hangars down from me, a club just picked up a mint Cherokee 140 and paid $40K cash. It actually looks nice and it's been flying non-stop since they bought it. They're about as complicated as a claw hammer. In today;s insurance market you will find very few underwriters willing to write on a low time PPL. If they do, expect north of $6K...maybe more like $8K (or more).

I pretty much did the same thing just to get on the other side of CFI/II and then ATP mins; I have family reasons for speed & efficiency now. But since you're in the time building phase, speed doesn't matter...time does. Go as slow as you can!

Even if you got a REALLY simple C without any complications, you're realistically looking at at least double the operating cost per hour (I bet it's closer to 2.5x). Base annuals on a Mooney start at $3K and go up. You can get a C-152 or PA28-140 annual for $1200 - sometimes less. Annuals, gas, and then insurance will add up.

Good luck for sure, but there's plenty of time for a Mooney. Took me 33 years...and finally got the plane I want (or need if you ask my wife).

[KLRDMD]

On 8/30/2024 at 4:00 AM, Z W said:

I got my instrument in a M20C with a 6-pack panel and a 430 GPS.

I got my instrument rating with a couple of KX-170Bs and a KR86 ADF 

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, bigmo said:

Not to scare you away from a Mooney, but ... In today;s insurance market you will find very few underwriters willing to write on a low time PPL. If they do, expect north of $6K...maybe more like $8K (or more).

Even if you got a REALLY simple C without any complications, you're realistically looking at at least double the operating cost per hour (I bet it's closer to 2.5x). Base annuals on a Mooney start at $3K and go up.

I don't know about the insurance market for newbies right now, but @Parker_Woodruff sure does. When I bought my Mooney before my hard plastic PPL came in the mail, my broker (not Parker) could only find ONE underwriter willing to insure me, so I accepted, wrote the check and couldn't actually fly the wings off of the Mooney. But I learned a lot, went lots of places, and had a lot of fun!

My 1970 C, with electric gear & flaps, runs < 2AMU for annual, plus another 10-15% for pilot static check every two years. My direct operating cost is just under 9 gal/hr fuel, and 12-15 hours/quart of oil. That is for flying at 170 mph; slow down, and the fuel burn will also decrease. At current $5.60/gal, that's $50/hour, plus another ~60 cents for oil. Ain't no Piper gonna fly for $20/hour.

Go ahead, get the Mooney, pay the first year insurance and fly at least 100 hours. You'll be shocked at how far and wide you will travel,doing that, and your insurance rates will come down. Then start working on Instruments, the 100+ hours of flying places will really help with the training as you will know how the plane responds, and what performance to expect.

The thing to watch is not Operating expenses, but the Cost of Ownership--what does it cost to keep the plane ready to fly, before you actually pump fuel and start the engine.

• Hangar / tie down
• Annual (see above)
• Pilot Static Inspection
• GPS updates
• Software? ForeFlight charges annually, and only runs on cellular iPad/iPhone. Avare is free, and runs great on my $189 Samsung wifi-only tablet. Are you a fruit fan? I'm not.

Then there's the Occasionals--tires, batteries, seals, spark plugs, etc.

And repairs. Always remember that upgrading the panel, instruments, interior and paint are optional.

Have fun! Get the Mooney! Train hard, fly often and stay safe!

[MBDiagMan]

As far as fitting into one goes, unless you are a very large person it is not as much about size as it is position. What I mean by that is that in a Mooney, your seating position is much like a sports car as opposed to a truck. Your legs are straight out in front of you and the panel is very close to you. If you are getting out of a 172 for example, you are accustomed to your feet below you, as if you’re sitting on a barstool and the panel far away from you. I have usually had a sports car around during my life and the seating in my Mooney is very familiar to me.  For some this is a very unusual seating position.  It is a matter of what you get used to.

as far as insurance goes, when I bought my Mooney, I was 68.  my insurance was very reasonable when I hit 73 after a year of less hours in the Mooney, insurance tripled. if you are young, I don’t think insurance will be crazy expensive although more expensive than an equal value 172.

Edited September 1 by MBDiagMan

[super-fly]

I had a similar concern; I posted on my local FB pilot group and within a day had an offer to come sit in one.  That guy ended up being my CFI for the transition.

I’m 6’3” and have no problems with legroom or headroom.  My only complaint is width; I have broad shoulders, and my left arm is almost pinned against my body.  However, the control throw is so small (compared to a Cessna, at least) that it doesn’t affect my flying at all.

[AndreiC]

I would be quite concerned about the plan to save money by owning a Mooney for the purposes of training, even if you already have the PPL. First of all because flying a complex aircraft is (as the name says) more complicated than a simple trainer. But also the cost of insurance and cost of annuals will be *much* higher than for a regular trainer. I owned Piper Cherokees for twenty years before my current Mooney. I am very happy with the switch to Mooney, but only because I plan to keep the Mooney for a long time and I am willing to pay for the advantages it offers. If saving money per hour was my first concern, the Cherokee would beat the Mooney hands down; probably overall costs would be almost exactly 1/2:

-- the Cherokee did not have an airframe that could corrode easily, so I felt alright to keep it parked tied down outside with only a cover; the Mooney needs to be hangared. This costs 4x as much.

-- annuals for the Cherokee were a (long) one day affair, costing roughly $1200. The first annual for the Mooney was closer to $3k, and I don't expect the next few to be much lower.

-- insurance (and I am in the sweetest spot possible, instrument rated, >150 hours in type, >1200 hours total, no claims) is 3x as much as it was for the Cherokee.

If you plan to buy the plane long term, make it yours, and improve it slowly as you go, by all means buy a Mooney and, on the side, do your IR and Commercial in it. It is very nice to be very familiar with every button in the plane, to know the exact flight characteristics, etc. But as a financial savings vehicle... definitely not sure of it.