F’n insurance

[67 m20F chump]

Just got my renewal for insurance.  It was $2000 for 45k hull 1mil liability.  I know my hull is way under insured so I need to up that.  I’m an ATP with thousands of hours and several hundred in Mooney aircraft.  My Mooney insurance is now more than what I was paying for my B55 only 5 years ago.  Is this the new normal for insurance?

[gwav8or]

I just renewed insurance for my '67 F and it was just over $2000 with $80K hull value. 1mil liability, $0 deductible.  You may want to explore other insurance brokers.  Could also be age related?  I've seen some individuals report that after a certain age (70 IIRC) their insurance either went way up or they couldn't even get coverage.  To be honest, I think that pilots have a case for litigation due to ageism because of that.

Edited August 20 by gwav8or

[67 m20F chump]

I’m turning 54 and no accident history.

[201er]

18 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Just got my renewal for insurance.  It was $2000 for 45k hull 1mil liability.  I know my hull is way under insured so I need to up that.  I’m an ATP with thousands of hours and several hundred in Mooney aircraft.  My Mooney insurance is now more than what I was paying for my B55 only 5 years ago.  Is this the new normal for insurance?

Insurance price increases have been a double whammy. Hull values doubled necessitating greater spending on insurance and on top of that premiums went way up as well. Net result is many of us spending double what we used to to have the plane insured for replacement cost.

But if there is any chance for savings or fine tuning, Parker @Parker_Woodruff would be the guy to do it.

[gwav8or]

1 hour ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I’m turning 54 and no accident history.

I just turned 50 and also no accident history.  I only have about 750 hours, IFR cert and only about 110 in Mooney aircraft.  Way less experience than you.  I'm basically still a baby pilot! LOL

You'd sure think having the hours that you do and having your ATP would be a benefit.

Insurance is a racket but unfortunately they have us by the "jewels" and they know it.

I'd definitely be shopping around.

I used BWI Aviation Insurance (https://bwifly.com/) but TBH, they're just another broker.  They did  help me save 700-800 on my first insurance premium on the Mooney and then saved me about another 600 the second year around.

[KLRDMD]

I wonder if it is a Mooney-specific thing? Parker will know for sure but there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years.

Parker just got me insured in a Cirrus SR20, $200,000 hull for $2,400. That was with 0 time M&M. An SR20 performance is remarkably similar to an F model Mooney.

[201er]

28 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I wonder if it is a Mooney-specific thing? Parker will know for sure but there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years.

Parker just got me insured in a Cirrus SR20, $200,000 hull for $2,400. That was with 0 time M&M. An SR20 performance is remarkably similar to an F model Mooney.

You know how insurance companies wanna know how much retract time you have before insuring you in a Mooney? How much sky diving time do you gotta have to insure a Cirrus?

[Shadrach]

49 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I wonder if it is a Mooney-specific thing? Parker will know for sure but there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years.

Parker just got me insured in a Cirrus SR20, $200,000 hull for $2,400. That was with 0 time M&M. An SR20 performance is remarkably similar to an F model Mooney.

I think it’s a retract thing. I have a buddy who currently owns a Cherokee but previously owned a Comanche. He has about 500TT, 200 of which were in the previously owned Comanche. He wanted to get another Comanche 250, but none of the insurance choices were palatable. He also got quoted for an M20C and was quoted $3200 a year for 70k hull.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

I wonder if it is a Mooney-specific thing? Parker will know for sure but there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years.

Parker just got me insured in a Cirrus SR20, $200,000 hull for $2,400. That was with 0 time M&M. An SR20 performance is remarkably similar to an F model Mooney.

.."there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years".   It is not just the last couple years. It has been all the time.  A lot of people here are in denial that gear-ups are the main reason that Mooney's have high insurance rates and why they are nearly uninsurable for new pilots due to rates. 

You just provided the proof.  You have a $200k hull Cirrus with ZERO time in MAKE & MODEL.  And only $2,400/year. 

[Rick Junkin]

3 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Just got my renewal for insurance.  It was $2000 for 45k hull 1mil liability.

Old Republic gave me $250K hull ($2,200) with $1M/$100K liability ($300) for $2,500 total this year. Age 63, commercial pilot CFII, basic med, >1,500 PIC and >500 MM, 3,700 hours "other" relevant but not considered for insurance.

I'm curious what your breakout is for hull and liability. Parker could answer this, but it kind of looks like there may be a minimum hull premium that doesn't increase linearly with hull value. That makes some sense to me if the underwriters are primarily mitigating for gear-ups.

[N204TA]

I bought my’68 F in July 1995.  Over the years, I saw insurance premiums slowly come down and paid $725 in 2017 for $65K hull, $1M liability, zero deductible.  Then, it started going up rapidly.

When it broke $1,000 in 2020, I called the broker and asked what was going on.  He said that the underwriter loved me and that just over $100 was liability and the rest was hull.  He speculated that supply chain issues, general lack of replacement parts, etc. was making it easier to just call damage a total loss rather than try to get repairs so payouts were getting more expensive.

FWIW, my policy just renewed at the end of June and actually went down a few bucks to $1,387.  I still only insure for $65K because, at this point in my life, I’m not sure if I’d ever buy another airplane if something happened to this one and I just want what I feel I have in it back.  I’m 57 with almost 4,000 hours and over 3,500 in my Mooney alone.

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, N204TA said:

I bought my’68 F in July 1995.  Over the years, I saw insurance premiums slowly come down and paid $725 in 2017 for $65K hull, $1M liability, zero deductible.  Then, it started going up rapidly.

When it broke $1,000 in 2020, I called the broker and asked what was going on.  He said that the underwriter loved me and that just over $100 was liability and the rest was hull.  He speculated that supply chain issues, general lack of replacement parts, etc. was making it easier to just call damage a total loss rather than try to get repairs so payouts were getting more expensive.

FWIW, my policy just renewed at the end of June and actually went down a few bucks to $1,387.  I still only insure for $65K because, at this point in my life, I’m not sure if I’d ever buy another airplane if something happened to this one and I just want what I feel I have in it back.  I’m 57 with almost 4,000 hours and over 3,500 in my Mooney alone.

Who’s your carrier?

[N204TA]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Who’s your carrier?

Global Aerospace through AOPA/AssuredPartners 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Just got my renewal for insurance.  It was $2000 for 45k hull 1mil liability.  I know my hull is way under insured so I need to up that.  I’m an ATP with thousands of hours and several hundred in Mooney aircraft.  My Mooney insurance is now more than what I was paying for my B55 only 5 years ago.  Is this the new normal for insurance?

UGH!  You are scaring me...I'm insured for 80K 1mil liability (NOT smooth, 100k/seat) and pay less than that!  And, I am NOT an ATP with thousands of hours.  We shall see at renewal time...

[Parker_Woodruff]

5 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Just got my renewal for insurance.  It was $2000 for 45k hull 1mil liability.  I know my hull is way under insured so I need to up that.  I’m an ATP with thousands of hours and several hundred in Mooney aircraft.  My Mooney insurance is now more than what I was paying for my B55 only 5 years ago.  Is this the new normal for insurance?

 

First, if that's $1MM Smooth, the pricing is about right.  Do you have a passenger bodily injury liability sublimit?

You might not be getting many quotes for your business if you're outside the typical underwriting parameters for a make and model (very low hull value).  Some companies simply won't quote if the hull is too low by comparison to other aircraft of the same year/make/model.

I wonder if there's a company that might insure you for about the same price or less with a $60-80K hull?

Have your broker shop it at the amount it would take for you to replace it it one of like kind and quality...I bet there will be better options available...

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, N204TA said:

Global Aerospace through AOPA/AssuredPartners 

I too have GA but they are not being as kind to me. I wonder if my broker is taking a larger piece of the pie.

[NickG]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I wonder if it is a Mooney-specific thing? Parker will know for sure but there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years.

Parker just got me insured in a Cirrus SR20, $200,000 hull for $2,400. That was with 0 time M&M. An SR20 performance is remarkably similar to an F model Mooney.

Yes, but no retract.

[Parker_Woodruff]

22 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I too have GA but they are not being as kind to me. I wonder if my broker is taking a larger piece of the pie.

Generally speaking, an agency that makes more commission than the baseline commission isn't doing a markup (the pie doesn't get bigger or cost more if one agency gets 18% when the baseline commission might be 15%).

A lot of the bigger agencies make a higher commission percentage.  I've always wished that higher commissions were awarded for agents bringing a segment of clients with lower loss ratios rather than what seems like earning a higher percentage by volume.

[Shadrach]

15 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Generally speaking, an agency that makes more commission than the baseline commission isn't doing a markup (the pie doesn't get bigger or cost more if one agency gets 18% when the baseline commission might be 15%).

A lot of the bigger agencies make a higher commission percentage.  I've always wished that higher commissions were awarded for agents bringing a segment of clients with lower loss ratios rather than what seems like earning a higher percentage by volume.

That makes sense. It looks like my broker recently changed from being an independent to an Acrisure affiliate.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It is not just the last couple years. It has been all the time. 

This is a snap from a Paul Bertorelli video:

 

[GeeBee]

There is worry in economic publications that the US is rapidly becoming uninsurable in a number of lines of insurance.

 

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

This is a snap from a Paul Bertorelli video:

 

All I know is the email from the underwriter that Parker shared with me that said, “Sorry, that’s all I’ve got. The gear ups are killing us.”

[GeeBee]

I recently read a analysis from a RGA (a re-insurance that said in GA, gliders have the highest claim rate for hull loss, but that the amounts are low, because gliders don't cost much and because of low speeds, rarely bodily injury

https://www.rgare.com/knowledge-center/article/general-aviation-experience-in-the-united-states

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

All I know is the email from the underwriter that Parker shared with me that said, “Sorry, that’s all I’ve got. The gear ups are killing us.”

Which begs the question, why don't carriers offer policies that EXCLUDE gear-ups?  Those pilots that feel they are ace-of-the-base and will NEVER gear-up can save a bunch on premiums?  Wonder if they think no one will sign up to take their own responsibility?

[M20F-1968]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

.."there have been many gear-ups in Mooneys in the last couple of years".   It is not just the last couple years. It has been all the time.  A lot of people here are in denial that gear-ups are the main reason that Mooney's have high insurance rates and why they are nearly uninsurable for new pilots due to rates. 

You just provided the proof.  You have a $200k hull Cirrus with ZERO time in MAKE & MODEL.  And only $2,400/year. 

Perhaps Parker can chime in on this one.  We have quite a number on Mooney pilots involved in Mooneyspace.  How about we take on the initiative as a group to get one of the active gear warning systems installed in as many of our planes as possible.  The choices are Height Landing System, P2, and I believe there are others.  Then we petition the insurers for discount pricing due to our proactive approach.  

John Breda