M20J minimum hours to be insurable

[BaldEagle]

Happy Friday all,

Last year my wife passed her private checkride — yay!  Obviously she wants to fly the Mooney that she (we) own, but the insurance company says, “hell, no”.  Understandably. So she’s been flying an Arrow and Comanche on a club insurance policy, and has ~50 hrs retract, 200TT now.  At what point will she be insurable?  She is getting frustrated burning money flying club aircraft when we own a perfectly good Mooney that isn’t flying enough.  Obviously she will need some hours with a Mooney CFI, but that’s not an option until she is listed on the policy.  Chicken and egg situation…

[Pinecone]

sk your insurance company what is the minimum they will accept.

If you don't like the answer, have your broker find a new underwriter for you

[Hank]

@Parker_Woodruff is the man to answer this question. The rest of us can only guess.

[toto]

Parker will know for sure, but I can't imagine that 200 hours TT with 50 RG is uninsurable.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Very insurable - send me a message

[smccray]

I got was successfully insured with roughly 90 hrs total time and 0 retract. Was 10 years ago, but I doubt things have changed with the J market. @Parker_Woodruff can get you setup. 

[N204TA]

For reference, I’m with Global Aerospace (AOPA Insurance).  As the named insured, I only need 10 hours retract and 5 make and model.  Other pilots need to be at least a private pilot ASEL with an instrument rating, 300 hours total, 25 retract, and 10 make and model.

[kortopates]

Definitely insurable now. I had a student pilot training in his J. (no private) But your rates will go up with those hours but Parker should be able to give you an idea how many retract hours to the next reduction in premiums and then you can decide on the trade offs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lax291]

I was a student pilot with about 50 hrs all in a warrior and found 1 company to insure me when I bought my J. Wasn't cheap... but I had 0 retract and low TT, I would think your wife should have no trouble, @Parker_Woodruffis the way to go. 

[201er]

3 hours ago, BaldEagle said:

Happy Friday all,

Last year my wife passed her private checkride — yay!  Obviously she wants to fly the Mooney that she (we) own, but the insurance company says, “hell, no”.  Understandably. So she’s been flying an Arrow and Comanche on a club insurance policy, and has ~50 hrs retract, 200TT now.  At what point will she be insurable?  She is getting frustrated burning money flying club aircraft when we own a perfectly good Mooney that isn’t flying enough.  Obviously she will need some hours with a Mooney CFI, but that’s not an option until she is listed on the policy.  Chicken and egg situation…

Why not log a bunch of Mooney time instead?? If you already own it and you are qualified to act as PIC, let her do all the flying and log all that time. 50 hours in make and model probably does more than Arrow and Comanche.

[jetdriven]

23 hours ago, 201er said:

Why not log a bunch of Mooney time instead?? If you already own it and you are qualified to act as PIC, let her do all the flying and log all that time. 50 hours in make and model probably does more than Arrow and Comanche.

Except insurance companies require the person to be named on the policy before they’re actually allowed to touch the controls. It’s kind of a new thing but it’s been happening a lot.

[MikeOH]

25 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Except insurance companies require the person to be named on the policy before they’re actually allowed to touch the controls. It’s kind of a new thing but it’s been happening a lot.

Hmm, so just how does that work?  Say we've got the situation here where both pilots are rated but only one meets insurance. Insured is right seat and an 'incident' occurs...is the insurance going to deny coverage claiming the uninsured left seater was manipulating the controls?  If so, what if we reverse the seats?  How does the insurance company claim the right seater (now the uninsured pilot) was manipulating the controls?  How about if the uninsured has been manipulating the controls and logging the time WITHOUT incident.  How can the insurance company demand to see the logs of the other non-named uninsured pilot to even 'prove' some kind of history?  Do rated but non-insured pilots need to ride in the back?

[jetdriven]

They could start by looking at the logbook of you and the other person and see if you’ve been giving them dual instruction in that plane and then that would probably be good cause for them to deny the claim that you guys are both flying in at the time of loss. Don’t forget there’s also Flightaware. They can go out and see training maneuvers that you’ve been flying with the person in previous times before the claim.  Unless you plan on not logging anything until after you’re done with all of it, but then now you’re getting into falsification of records, which is an even bigger problem.

[MikeOH]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

They could start by looking at the logbook of you and the other person and see if you’ve been giving them dual instruction in that plane and then that would probably be good cause for them to deny the claim that you guys are both flying in at the time of loss. Don’t forget there’s also Flightaware. They can go out and see training maneuvers that you’ve been flying with the person in previous times before the claim.  Unless you plan on not logging anything until after you’re done with all of it, but then now you’re getting into falsification of records, which is an even bigger problem.

My point was what legal grounds does the insurance company have to DEMAND the logs of someone NOT on the policy?

What does looking at Flightaware matter?  How do they even know if there are two people even in the plane on those flights?  I commonly practice maneuvers with and without passengers/pilots.

Why would there even be logged dual?  We are discussing gaining experience for an already certificated and rated pilot, not transition training.  I.e. building time to meet minimum insurance hour requirements.

[toto]

I wrote a big long thoughtful response on this thread, but I decided I wasn't adding anything really original, so I'm just going to post a video from the Ruthless Aviator Girl channel instead.

 

 

[jetdriven]

Look, you do what you want. But my wife wanted to add a commercial instrument rated Pilot to our policy for the air race classic this year  and they said she must be insured in it or they’re not gonna pay it.  I suppose if she signed some affidavit that she was actually just not a flying pilot whatsoever and not required maybe that would’ve been fine, but they were both gonna switch out legs for this thing. And then we were like well she can fly with me a few times and get some experience and they said no she has to be named on the policy before she can touch the controls.  So we added her to the policy and paid a pretty good sum because she had zero time in type. But between them signing up for the air race and social media posts, her partner buying an airline ticket to come out to practice with me, and everything else, it wouldn’t be too hard to figure out that she was flying the airplane and they could weasel out of paying it. Or how about this, they’ll just refuse to pay it and then you have to sue them to get them to do it. But they have lawyers on staff  whobwork for them and you don’t so you got to hire  one. And then the burden of proof is still on you, and then discovery rules come into play and then they’re gonna find out the emails were you guys coordinated the flights and discussed the insurance and everything else.  And yes, absolutely if the  flight aware history shows training style maneuvers is going to be brought up as well. I’m not sure if logbooks can be requested in discovery, but if it exists and you try to falsify it or destroy it again, you’re gonna lose your case because hiding or destroying evidence, it’s pretty consequential. Just ask Lycoming how well that works for them. But I think if they get a whiff of insurance fraud or that you’re lying to them, It can get bad pretty quick.  Like I said, they have the money and they can just refuse to pay it. but I think telling somebody who doesn’t have any experience to get insurance to put their friend on the policy and pretend like they’re not flying it and they get a bunch of experience in the same airplane they asked about getting insured for is bad advice. 

[kortopates]

Seats don't matter but I think there are a couple ways it could go: i)  they could offer to pay the claim to the insured but then subrogate the loss against the uninsured spouse so that in the end they loose the plane or ii) just deny the claim on the basis that the incident pilot wasn't named and didn't meet the open pilot warranty since she does not.

Either way any pilot flying on the open pilot warranty is uninsured in the aircraft. The owner will be made whole by the insurance company but the insurance company is likely going to subrogate their losses against the pilot not on the policy flying under the open pilot clause.   

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Seats don't matter but I think there are a couple ways it could go: i)  they could offer to pay the claim to the insured but then subrogate the loss against the uninsured spouse so that in the end they loose the plane or ii) just deny the claim on the basis that the incident pilot wasn't named and didn't meet the open pilot warranty since she does not.

Either way any pilot flying on the open pilot warranty is uninsured in the aircraft. The owner will be made whole by the insurance company but the insurance company is likely going to subrogate their losses against the pilot not on the policy flying under the open pilot clause.   

I get @jetdriven's situation: they were going to be in some kind of air race where it was pretty clear the pilots would be trading off.

My real issue is having a spouse that has, for example,  now earned a private cert and is otherwise rated in the plane but not insured.  The spouse has always flown with the other but now the spouse has a certificate and can't fly in that plane anymore without the threat of having one of your scenarios play out?  How do you prove that someone was NOT manipulating the controls??  Something doesn't seem right with this...anytime you take another pilot with you the risk is there.

[jetdriven]

When you go to apply for insurance or add her to the policy, they’re gonna want to know how much time she has in make and  model and then how are you gonna say that she got it?  
Or let’s say you just never want to add her to the policy and she never flies the airplane so then it’s kind of a moot point. But if you want her to somehow fly the airplane but not be named on the policy and she doesn’t meet the open Pilot warranty you’re putting yourself in a situation.

Your situation , our situation and the OP’s situation are all three different things. But I do remember when we bought our plane there was a three-way partnership and they required all three pilots that were owners of the airplane to be named on the policy. Or specifically excluded. But either way we had to pay up. 

 

[Becca]

 

Hmm, so just how does that work?  Say we've got the situation here where both pilots are rated but only one meets insurance. Insured is right seat and an 'incident' occurs...is the insurance going to deny coverage claiming the uninsured left seater was manipulating the controls?  If so, what if we reverse the seats?  How does the insurance company claim the right seater (now the uninsured pilot) was manipulating the controls?  How about if the uninsured has been manipulating the controls and logging the time WITHOUT incident.  How can the insurance company demand to see the logs of the other non-named uninsured pilot to even 'prove' some kind of history?  Do rated but non-insured pilots need to ride in the back?

Let’s play it out further.

When the FAA or NTSB interviews you, are you going to lie about what you were doing?

Will your wife also lie when they ask?

Then when the insurance company asks you to sign an affidavit under penalty of perjury when they pay out the claim will you lie there too?

Sure, you can get “cute” about this whole thing, but what it amounts to is not much more than insurance fraud.

We have asked our agent about all these variations - we’d save a lot of money if we could insure just Byron on the plane and not me.  But that’s just not the way it works when you have a two pilot couple both of whom will be flying the plane.

(Also another complication, we have had insurance policies which prohibit right seat flying except for the purpose of flight instruction or training to be a flight instructor. The person receiving instruction in the left seat must be named on the policy or eligible to fly under the open pilot.)

All this is hypothetical because OP’s wife clearly has enough experience to be insurable now.  And I think many of you might find this hard to believe but she might want the freedom to fly her own airplane without her husband in it.

Edited August 11 by Becca

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Or let’s say you just never want to add her to the policy and she never flies the airplane so then it’s kind of a moot point.

Not a moot point; EXACTLY my point!

She is NOT on the policy and does NOT fly the plane, but we have an incident.  How do I prove a NEGATIVE to the insurance company?

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, Becca said:

Let’s play it out further.

When the FAA or NTSB interviews you, are you going to lie about what you were doing?

Will your wife also lie when they ask?

Then when the insurance company asks you to sign an affidavit under penalty of perjury when they pay out the claim will you lie there too?

Sure, you can get “cute” about this whole thing, but what it amounts to is insurance fraud.

(And is presuming the arrangement is allowed. We have had insurance policies which prohibit right seat flying except for the purpose of flight instruction or training to be a flight instructor. The person receiving instruction in the left seat must be named on the policy or eligible to fly under the open pilot.)

All this is hypothetical because OP’s wife clearly has enough experience to be insurable now.  And I think many of you might find this hard to believe but she might want the freedom to fly her own airplane without her husband in it.

See my previous post.  No fraud involved.  And, real nice to throw in an assumption that I'm a sexist...real classy

[jetdriven]

I would call and ask them that question.  Maybe if you explained to them that she never flies it, but you don’t want to run into any trouble if you ever have a claim, see what they say. If she’s part owner of the plane, they may require her to be named on the policy, that’s kind of what happened to us. I’m curious what they have to say.  Having a spouse who is a pilot is not a very common occurrence.

[Becca]

 

Look, you do what you want. But my wife wanted to add a commercial instrument rated Pilot to our policy for the air race classic this year  and they said she must be insured in it or they’re not gonna pay it.  I suppose if she signed some affidavit that she was actually just not a flying pilot whatsoever and not required maybe that would’ve been fine, but they were both gonna switch out legs for this thing. And then we were like well she can fly with me a few times and get some experience and they said no she has to be named on the policy before she can touch the controls.  So we added her to the policy and paid a pretty good sum because she had zero time in type. 

To be clear here - we actually saved money when we added my race partner. We ended up having to drop smooth limits (our insurer wouldn’t cover  her on the smooth policy), which resulted in a $300 refund.  There was no question we were always going to insure her for the race; but we asked the insurer if Byron (already named on policy) could instruct her to get her time in the plane before we added her to the policy, and the answer was no — both the instructor and the “student” had to be named on the policy or covered by the open pilot policy starting from day 1.

[Becca]

17 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

See my previous post.  No fraud involved.  And, real nice to throw in an assumption that I'm a sexist...real classy

No lying required when other pilots in the plane are mere passengers. Happens all the time, people take friends (or wives) flying who aren’t insured on the airplane. 

The problem is when - as suggested in this thread - that the uninsured pilot is not a passenger but actually manipulating the controls and logging time.  Then you might get into a situation where the lie is required.

NTSB reports often note when passengers have pilot certificates.  I think there is a reasonable chance of someone - the feds or the insurance - inquiring about who is flying when there are multiple certificated pilots on board. Insurance often also take witness statements and could ask the same question of your “passengers.”

just playing it out for you. 

Edited August 11 by Becca