GAMI presentation from OSH '24

[0TreeLemur]

I just read the AvWeb article here about the FAA PAFI and the woes it has caused.   The article says that George Braly of GAMI made a presentation at OSH this year that the article and associated comments suggest was very interesting.   Did anyone attend that who can summarize?   Or, is there a recording of it somewhere that I can watch?    Inquiring minds...

Thanks,

Fred

[Shadrach]

  On 7/30/2024 at 6:36 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

I just read the AvWeb article here about the FAA PAFI and the woes it has caused.   The article says that George Braly of GAMI made a presentation at OSH this year that the article and associated comments suggest was very interesting.   Did anyone attend that who can summarize?   Or, is there a recording of it somewhere that I can watch?    Inquiring minds...

Thanks,

Fred

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Hot off the presses! less than an hour old...

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

This was an interesting watch for sure.  George, as usual is armed with lots data. The data show that swift fuel does not meet FAA detonation margin standards when operated at normal power settings in 25° high compression (8.5:1, 8.75:1), engines on the test stand.  I was listening to the presentation in the background while working, but my take is that the data suggest that the valve recession discovered in the UND trial was likely caused by shockwaves in the combustion chamber due to the engines operating in light to moderate detonation for extended periods of time. GAMI also had a number of solenoids malfunction on their test stand after running Swift UL94.  The rubber diaphragms became brittle and failed.  The solenoids had been in service for 24 years and all of the failures occurred within hours of being exposed to 94UL. The Q and A was a bit heated as the Swift Fuel folks were in attendance and naturally were not happy with the findings. George brought a piston along from one of the engines showcasing the effects of running on 94UL. 

Additionally, GAMI's STC is now available. The cost is $50 plus $1.75 per horsepower ($400 for a 200hp Lycoming). When G1000UL will actually be available is anyone's guess.

[EricJ]

I think you have to remember that George is also essentialy a salesman.

 

[MikeOH]

  On 7/30/2024 at 9:24 PM, EricJ said:

I think you have to remember that George is also essentialy a salesman.

 

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I tried to give your post multiple likes!

[Shadrach]

  On 7/30/2024 at 9:24 PM, EricJ said:

I think you have to remember that George is also essentialy a salesman.

 

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Yes, a salesman that is an IA, A&P, ATP, DER and propulsion engineer. It’s certainly in his sales interest to get up at Oshkosh in front of the whole Aviation community and bullshit is way through a presentation with biased data. 
Did you watch it? I’m not saying that he doesn’t have a vested interest G1000UL, but the collected data is pretty compelling. When you can sample detonation traces in milliseconds, and have the ability to switch between three different fuels without changing any other parameters, and one of those fuels clearly induces detonation, it’s kind of hard to blame the messenger.
So either he cooked the data, or the engine parameters that he said he ran were falsified in order to induce detonation or perhaps, just maybe, 94 UL has fallen short of its goals.

I’d much prefer it if there were an independent third-party with a sophisticated test stand. Then the FAA wouldn’t have to rely on an interested party to test someone else’s fuel for free. 

[EricJ]

  On 7/30/2024 at 9:51 PM, Shadrach said:

Yes, a salesman that is an IA, A&P, ATP, DER and propulsion engineer. It’s certainly in his sales interest to get up at Oshkosh in front of the whole Aviation community and bullshit is way through a presentation with biased data. 
Did you watch it? I’m not saying that he doesn’t have a vested interest G1000UL, but the collected data is pretty compelling. When you can sample detonation traces in milliseconds, and have the ability to switch between three different fuels without changing any other parameters, and one of those fuels clearly induces detonation, it’s kind of hard to blame the messenger.
So either he cooked the data, or the engine parameters that he said he ran were falsified in order to induce detonation or perhaps, just maybe, 94 UL has fallen short of its goals.

I’d much prefer it if there were an independent third-party with a sophisticated test stand. Then the FAA wouldn’t have to rely on an interested party to test someone else’s fuel for free. 

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I didn't watch this vid, but I was at his presentation a few months ago at the Buckeye Air Fair.    I also spent an engineering career that spanned many decades of listening to pitches from highly qualified engineers, PhDs, etc., etc., showing all kinds of highly instrumented and pedigreed data in very convincing presentations, many designed to separate either customers or venture capitalists from their money.   In many of those cases I was doing due diligence for the venture capitalists, and in others it was in the context of somebody trying to convince a standards body, of which I was a member, that their technology should part of a standard (so that they can collect license fees on their intellectual property).    I'll reiterate that you should remember that George is essentially a salesman.

 

[PeteMc]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:13 PM, EricJ said:

I also spent an engineering career that spanned many decades of listening to pitches from highly qualified engineers, PhDs, etc., etc., showing all kinds of highly instrumented and pedigreed data in very convincing presentations, many designed to separate either customers or venture capitalists from their money. 

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So you're saying George is trying to "push" or "sell" his company and its products.  I get that, and also get any CEO/Owner doing their job would do the same thing.  But are you also saying George is trying to sell snake oil?  And the data was massaged, doesn't show what he's saying or was out right falsified?  Or you do you just not like the dumbed down presentation for a room of non PhDs?  

I get that he's selling, but so what?  Something has to happen soon and if his v01 of his G1000 is a start, then so be it.  And to a non scientist, but I like to think usually gets the concept of these things, there seems to be years of data supporting his "sales pitch" to the point that maybe we should listen.

But always looking for facts to the contrary. 

 

[Pinecone]

  On 7/30/2024 at 9:01 PM, Shadrach said:

, GAMI's STC is now available. The cost is $50 plus $1.75 per horsepower ($400 for a 200hp Lycoming). When G1000UL will actually be available is anyone's guess.

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It has been available for over 18 months.

Interestingly, the first two sold to the general public are to Mooneys.   I have STC number 006.  001 was to American Bonanza Society and 002 to 005 were testing the website.

[Pinecone]

  On 7/30/2024 at 9:24 PM, EricJ said:

I think you have to remember that George is also essentialy a salesman.

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But he is first an aeronautical engineer and pilot.  

[kortopates]

As he said, Just “believe the data!”
WRT to UND issue with Swift, Mike B predicted exactly what George’s data showed right after we heard about the issue based on the engines CR and timing. It really isn’t all that surprising.

What is surprising is that the oil analysis data is showing very significant reduction in wear metals.

I am really looking forward to its availability with STC in hand ready to fill up with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EricJ]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:40 PM, PeteMc said:

So you're saying George is trying to "push" or "sell" his company and its products.  I get that, and also get any CEO/Owner doing their job would do the same thing.

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Yup, he's doing his job.    He's doing what a zillion entrepreneurs ahead of him have done since business was invented.   No fault to him at all.

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:40 PM, PeteMc said:

But are you also saying George is trying to sell snake oil?  And the data was massaged, doesn't show what he's saying or was out right falsified?  Or you do you just not like the dumbed down presentation for a room of non PhDs?  

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He's presenting his side of the story, from his perspective, to promote his interests and dissuade others from supporting the competition.    That's his job, it's what's in his interest to do, and it's the same playbook used for millenia.   People should not think that he is presenting the entire story or an unbiased story, because that's generally not what is done when trying to get a technology accepted in a competitive environment.

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:40 PM, PeteMc said:

I get that he's selling, but so what?

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So nothing.  

[EricJ]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:48 PM, Pinecone said:

But he is first an aeronautical engineer and pilot.  

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He's an attorney.

 

[EricJ]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:48 PM, kortopates said:

As he said, Just “believe the data!”

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More succinctly, "Believe this data!"

[Pinecone]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:50 PM, EricJ said:

He's an attorney.

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That too.

But his original degree is aeronautical engineering.  He went to work for Ted Smith on the Aerostar.

[EricJ]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:51 PM, Pinecone said:

That too.

But his original degree is aeronautical engineering.  He went to work for Ted Smith on the Aerostar.

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And also remember that all of the entities participating in this process have highly qualified engineers and pilots as well.

Most pitches like his have highly qualified people presenting data that was carefully collected and packaged.  It's harder to get very far if you don't.   I suspect people seem to gravitate to George because he appears more accessible and does a lot of marketing and is good at selling his position.   Many of the other entities prefer to not be so public, and that's understandable as well.   It means you need to look a little deeper if you want the whole story, and if you don't you're only getting one side of a multi-faceted project.

 

[PeteMc]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:49 PM, EricJ said:

He's presenting his side of the story, from his perspective, to promote his interests and dissuade others from supporting the competition. 

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So you're saying there is nothing wrong with G1000, nor the way George is promoting it.  You'd just like to hear more from the competition.

 

[Shadrach]

  On 7/30/2024 at 11:50 PM, EricJ said:

He's an attorney.

 

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And also a DER with an Undergraduate from Brown in Aeronautical Engineering.

I’m not some fanboy, sycophant but you seem to be going out of your way to downplay the significant work he’s done in many areas of GA.

I also appreciate that he’s thoughtfully responded to every email I’ve ever sent to him and we’ve never met nor done business in any way.
So, I’d say he’s fundamentally a responsive, generous, repository of knowledge in addition to being a “salesman” and an attorney.
 

Not sure if you have an axe to grind, but it kind of comes off that way.

[GeeBee]

George has reason to rejoice. His fuel can get over the 104 MON octane hump without leaving heavy deposits. G100UL is the last man standing as the last of the PAFI candidates is poised to throw in the towel. Whatever you want to say about him George Braley has answered every skeptic.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/100ll-drop-in-replacement-impossible-says-pafi-candidate/

[FlyingDude]

So nobody ran UL94 with 5* retard?

[EricJ]

  On 7/31/2024 at 12:08 AM, Shadrach said:

Not sure if you have an axe to grind, but it kind of comes off that way.

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Nope, just some counterpoint to those that seem to think the GAMI stuff is a slam dunk or hang on whatever George says.    He's got some stuff going on, but it's not a slam dunk and it most certainly is not the entire story.

[BlueSky247]

I wish this same video quality was available for Burt's Starship talk. The other video that was posted is rough.

[Shadrach]

  On 7/31/2024 at 6:48 PM, FlyingDude said:

So nobody ran UL94 with 5* retard?

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George ran it on a single point of ignition which is operationally similar to retarding the timing 5°. That eliminated all traces of detonation. He theorize that the UND fleet could have avoided the detonation issues by retiming the engines closer to 20°.

[PeteMc]

  On 7/31/2024 at 7:47 PM, EricJ said:

Nope, just some counterpoint to those that seem to think the GAMI stuff is a slam dunk or hang on whatever George says. 

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I get that, but are there any other contenders now?  I have to admit I don't scour the aviation news for the latest stories or have back channel contacts to know about other options.  But last I had heard, the other players, at least for the time being, have stepped away.  Did I miss read or miss some other announcement of a strong competitor to G100UL? 

[McMooney]

you guys should all be really scared right now, if no competitors come along we're most likely very screwed.