Stark reminder

[MikeOH]

91.123 (b) "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an  aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which  air traffic control is exercised."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.123

 

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

While you could certainly ask to cancel FF, I don't think that works if you've been given an actual ATC instruction; vector or altitude, or both.  That is, you can't just respond to their instruction with, "Mooney Nxxx canceling FF"

I think thats exactly how it works actually.  I have cancelled when they have given me some bizarre routing thats obvious just to stick me somewhere they don't have to think.  I just say unable, and to cancel my FF.

[Schllc]

59 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

91.123 (b) "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an  aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which  air traffic control is exercised."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.123

 

Correct, and if you are within their airspace on FF you cannot disregard instructions.  If you are not within their airspace though, FF is discretionary and if you cancel, you are VF rules and if you adhere to those you are legal.

At least this is my understanding, and how I have been operating for years without incident.

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Correct, and if you are within their airspace on FF you cannot disregard instructions.  If you are not within their airspace though, FF is discretionary and if you cancel, you are VF rules and if you adhere to those you are legal.

At least this is my understanding, and how I have been operating for years without incident.

I think you could very well be correct, but the reg could be a little unclear because it says “where air traffic control is exercised” and not “within the borders of class b, c, or d airspace…”. Maybe I should be less nervous to read it your way, but I’ve always used Mike’s interpretation.

[Schllc]

51 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I think you could very well be correct, but the reg could be a little unclear because it says “where air traffic control is exercised” and not “within the borders of class b, c, or d airspace…”. Maybe I should be less nervous to read it your way, but I’ve always used Mike’s interpretation.

I suppose I’ve always thought if they had and wanted “control” they would deny your cancelation.  The way I have always understood airspace is that you control yourself for everything outside of atc mandates control, like Bravo and Charlie. You must have control in other areas because you are not required to have a radio so how would they even reach you to direct?
I guess I’m not sure what I would do if they said no when I told them to cancel, and I’ve never just left without permission, but I have never been denied the ability to cancel…

 

 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Schllc said:

I suppose I’ve always thought if they had and wanted “control” they would deny your cancelation.  The way I have always understood airspace is that you control yourself for everything outside of atc mandates control, like Bravo and Charlie. You must have control in other areas because you are not required to have a radio so how would they even reach you to direct?
I guess I’m not sure what I would do if they said no when I told them to cancel, and I’ve never just left without permission, but I have never been denied the ability to cancel…

 

 

I think the question is if, while on FF, you've ever had ATC say, "Schllc Mooney, turn right 090" and you responded, "Schllc Mooney cancel FF".  That's the scenario I'm talking about; not wanting to follow their instruction, so you cancel FF.  I don't think that's going to be ok.

[N201MKTurbo]

29 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I think the question is if, while on FF, you've ever had ATC say, "Schllc Mooney, turn right 090" and you responded, "Schllc Mooney cancel FF".  That's the scenario I'm talking about; not wanting to follow their instruction, so you cancel FF.  I don't think that's going to be ok.

I’ve done it many times while IFR. mostly in your neighborhood. They would try to send me out in the sticks and I would cancel and go the way I wanted.

I was flying to Santa Barbara about once a week a couple of years ago. I would file FIM PSP BLH BXK at 15000 they would always give me cleared as filed at the airport then when I was handed to center they would send me to PMD. I only filed because of the marine layer, so it was clear skies the rest of the way. So I would cancel IFR and tell them I was direct PSP AT 15500. They would say “you know you will be flying through  5 busy approach and departure corridors” and I would say we can work it out. They would work me with FF. I would get a few vectors, but much less than the 20 minutes they were trying to add to my flight.

[amillet]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

I hate the former, too. Leaving AVL, Tower vectored me into steeply rising terrain and forgot about me, they sounded surprised when I asked to turn on course.

In the latter case, "cancel flight following" is a good option, unless you're in cluttered airspace like SoCal. It works for me!

Often as I'm approaching home, ATL will ask if I have the field in sight, often at 20+ miles out with heavy summer haze, so that they can cancel on me, VFR or IFR. If I think I see it, I'll let them know; sometimes VFR, they don't ask, just tell me "no observed traffic between you and your destination, squawk VFR, frequency change approved".

Airport in sight (on the GPS)

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, amillet said:

Airport in sight (on the GPS)

Hey! I can make that call at departure, from several hundred miles away!

[NewMoon]

So I just had another situation on an IFR flight plan. I am fully aware that SW FL is a  VERY congested airspace.

South of Sarasota on my way to Punta Gorda adsb showed a plane at 1 o'clock and 300' above and 5 miles. No call out, now 3 miles, now 2 miles. I can't even get a call into ATC with obviously twice the number of planes on frequency then the controller can handle. I just made my own 30° deviation, let him pass and then back on my original heading. 

Not a peep from ATC. Reality, as PIC you are responsible for your own separation.  I don't ask anymore in SW FL, I just do. 

The degradation in our country has infiltrated aviation. Be diligent and use any and all traffic technology.  

[Will.iam]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

While you could certainly ask to cancel FF, I don't think that works if you've been given an actual ATC instruction; vector or altitude, or both.  That is, you can't just respond to their instruction with, "Mooney Nxxx canceling FF"

Depends if I’m in their class Bravo or not. 9 times out of 10 i am and i have to play by their rules but if I’m below the bravo i have cancelled FF and just gone on my way. 

[MikeOH]

45 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve done it many times while IFR. mostly in your neighborhood. They would try to send me out in the sticks and I would cancel and go the way I wanted.

I was flying to Santa Barbara about once a week a couple of years ago. I would file FIM PSP BLH BXK at 15000 they would always give me cleared as filed at the airport then when I was handed to center they would send me to PMD. I only filed because of the marine layer, so it was clear skies the rest of the way. So I would cancel IFR and tell them I was direct PSP AT 15500. They would say “you know you will be flying through  5 busy approach and departure corridors” and I would say we can work it out. They would work me with FF. I would get a few vectors, but much less than the 20 minutes they were trying to add to my flight.

THAT is NOT the scenario here; I've certainly cancelled IFR when I didn't want to follow a new routing.  As you said, "we can work it out". You're still talking to him (now on FF)

To be as crystal clear as I can: You are VFR with FF.  ATC gives you an instruction to turn right 20 degrees (say, for traffic). You don't like it and say, "Cancel FF". I think you can be violated for 91.123(b) if the controller desires (assuming you just squawk VFR, change freq, and do as you please). As in, he says, "NO! I need you to turn 20 degrees right"Granted, if he agrees to it by saying, "Fine, squawk VFR, see ya" then you'd be okay.  If he is completely silent after your announcement to cancel....well, not sure what to think; maybe you get away with it?

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Schllc said:

I suppose I’ve always thought if they had and wanted “control” they would deny your cancelation.  The way I have always understood airspace is that you control yourself for everything outside of atc mandates control, like Bravo and Charlie. You must have control in other areas because you are not required to have a radio so how would they even reach you to direct?
I guess I’m not sure what I would do if they said no when I told them to cancel, and I’ve never just left without permission, but I have never been denied the ability to cancel…

 

 

OK, that is consistent with my position.  You've, in effect, asked to cancel FF and if they don't fight you I'd guess you'd be okay.  In E space, if you have never called them up for FF then you are obviously ok; the scenario is you've requested, and accepted, FF in E space.  At that point you are 'under their control' until released.  You need to follow their instructions or negotiate your way out.  Refusing to turn because they ask you and you just don't want to is a 91.123(b) violation IMHO.

[MikeOH]

26 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Depends if I’m in their class Bravo or not. 9 times out of 10 i am and i have to play by their rules but if I’m below the bravo i have cancelled FF and just gone on my way. 

Again, if you cancel FF and they 'accept' there is no issue.

[Schllc]

13 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

OK, that is consistent with my position.  You've, in effect, asked to cancel FF and if they don't fight you I'd guess you'd be okay.  In E space, if you have never called them up for FF then you are obviously ok; the scenario is you've requested, and accepted, FF in E space.  At that point you are 'under their control' until released.  You need to follow their instructions or negotiate your way out.  Refusing to turn because they ask you and you just don't want to is a 91.123(b) violation IMHO.

That’s an interesting question. I have in effect done just that.  I didn’t want to deviate, so I canceled and kept the heading.  I did not make it contentious, and they didn’t refuse to release.  I have never been refused that request. 
If they did refuse, I believe the only option is to follow any safe instruction and ask questions later. 

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, Schllc said:

That’s an interesting question. I have in effect done just that.  I didn’t want to deviate, so I canceled and kept the heading.  I did not make it contentious, and they didn’t refuse to release.  I have never been refused that request. 
If they did refuse, I believe the only option is to follow any safe instruction and ask questions later. 

Agreed.  I've never actually tried to 'cancel FF my way out of an instruction I didn't want to follow'...may need to wrestle up the courage to give it a shot

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

THAT is NOT the scenario here; I've certainly cancelled IFR when I didn't want to follow a new routing.  As you said, "we can work it out". You're still talking to him (now on FF)

To be as crystal clear as I can: You are VFR with FF.  ATC gives you an instruction to turn right 20 degrees (say, for traffic). You don't like it and say, "Cancel FF". I think you can be violated for 91.123(b) if the controller desires (assuming you just squawk VFR, change freq, and do as you please). As in, he says, "NO! I need you to turn 20 degrees right"Granted, if he agrees to it by saying, "Fine, squawk VFR, see ya" then you'd be okay.  If he is completely silent after your announcement to cancel....well, not sure what to think; maybe you get away with it?

So, they give you a vector you don’t like and you cancel. What are you supposed to do? Fly that heading till you run out of gas and crash?

[N201MKTurbo]

Usually when you cancel the last thing they say is maintain VFR. That works for me.

[MikeOH]

56 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, they give you a vector you don’t like and you cancel. What are you supposed to do? Fly that heading till you run out of gas and crash?

Of course not. My point was you are cancelling because you do NOT want to take that vector.

I think we've beat this sufficiently to death...

[N201MKTurbo]

27 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Of course not. My point was you are cancelling because you do NOT want to take that vector.

I think we've beat this sufficiently to death...

Oh, be serious. This thread has at least 20 pages left in it!