Gear Up at KCVH on July 8, Third Major in 12 years For This Airplane

[EricJ]

33 minutes ago, wombat said:

@GeeBee You are suggesting what basically amounts to more training, but following a different/better procedure than most people follow.   Personally I use GUMPS (Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop) but find that's actually missing the cowl flaps, which I'd like to have open at that point.    It's more of a challenge when switching between multiple aircraft types.  Some things apply to some aircraft and not others and I personally find it difficult to repeatedly follow a procedure that doesn't apply most of the time.   Most of my landings these days are still in fixed gear aircraft and it's hard to keep pointing at the gear lever that doesn't exist and say 'gear down'.   The same with cowl flaps and with prop controls on fixed-pitch prop planes.  

I've never liked GUMPS because I always want to put "gear" where the 'g' is, and that screws it all up, unless you do the Gear, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Probably should check the gear again...etc., version.

So now I used PUFFS,  Power, Undercarriage, Fuel, Flaps, Seatbelts.

Power includes everything for power settings, prop forward if ready, throttle and mixture where you want them, any turbo controls where you want them, etc.

Undercarriage is the gear check.

Fuel - best tank, pump set, etc.

Flaps - I include both approach wing flaps and cowl flaps here.

Seatbelts, can include switches if you want, etc.

I just find the flow better and I don't jam my mental gears on 'G' doesn't stand for Gear, plus it has an F for flaps, which can include cowl flaps like you suggest.    I agree that that needs to be in there, which is one of the reasons I like this better.

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, Echo said:

Training does NOT eliminate human element. 

But it is completely silly to think training does NOT help; as opposed to shaming which is pretty damn ineffective.

[GeeBee]

The easiest way to bring down RLOC is to be stabilized, configured, on speed, on path. Which is part of my 500' call. There is a reason why airlines require the same at 1000' otherwise, go around.

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Aviationist said:

You are also certainly in the category of people in this group who have questionable mental stability. 
 

That’s not an attack or an insult, it’s a well qualified and documented observation. 

Compliment coming from you

[wombat]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

That will work! I'm around 980 Mooney hours, but if I can't fly my Mooney, how do I get those last 20 hours time logged? And how do we ever get any new Mooney pilots?

The brand will be gone in just 2-3 decades, and we can only sell to each other. At least we'd have lots of spare parts, from the planes currently owned by pilots with less than 1000 Mooney hours, who can no longer fly their Mooneys . . . . But boy, would the accident rate and number of gear-ups go way down!!

P.S.--NOTHING involving people, or equipment built, maintained and operated by people, will ever be 100% effective.

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

If we really wanted to do that sort of thing, I'd say the first 1000 hours of Mooney time have to be with a pilot that already has 1000 hours or more of Mooney time.    Pretty lucrative for those of us that already have that!  Oh wait, I've only got about 500 hours of Mooney time!!!  NOOooooo!!!!

[wombat]

29 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I've never liked GUMPS because I always want to put "gear" where the 'g' is, and that screws it all up, unless you do the Gear, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Probably should check the gear again...etc., version.

So now I used PUFFS,  Power, Undercarriage, Fuel, Flaps, Seatbelts.

I got stuck on "Gear" being part of GUMPS for a while, but after a while it became natural for the G to stand for Gas.

Personally I don't think I need a 'seatbelts' item because I put my seatbelt (and shoulder harness, if the aircraft is equipped) on before starting the engine, and leave it on the whole flight(*)

Should we as a Mooney community or as part of the 'Light GA' pilot community standardize on something do you think?  Or should we have a couple of options (GUMPS, PUFFS, GUMPS-S, etc) to choose from?

 

I'd like to have a printed list for each plane I fly regularly that matches both the aircraft and my personal inclination.  But maybe each aircraft should have a pre-landing checklist printed somewhere that is easy to reference?  I think my Mooney has one, but I never use it.

 

(*) Using a gatorade bottle for in-flight relief sometimes requires some shimmying and work.

[EricJ]

56 minutes ago, wombat said:

Should we as a Mooney community or as part of the 'Light GA' pilot community standardize on something do you think?  Or should we have a couple of options (GUMPS, PUFFS, GUMPS-S, etc) to choose from?

I think everybody should find what works best for them and do that.   It's not practical to think that any one method will be optimal for everybody.   

 

[wombat]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think everybody should find what works best for them and do that.   It's not practical to think that any one method will be optimal for everybody.   

 

I think that's where we are now.   But it's causing enough gear-ups that it's a financial burden on some of us.   Or at least enough of one that it's worth complaining about. 

Do you think we should do anything different from what we do now, or should we just accept this rate of gear-up accidents as part of the cost of flying with the level of freedom we have?

[MikeOH]

32 minutes ago, wombat said:

I think that's where we are now.   But it's causing enough gear-ups that it's a financial burden on some of us.   Or at least enough of one that it's worth complaining about. 

Do you think we should do anything different from what we do now, or should we just accept this rate of gear-up accidents as part of the cost of flying with the level of freedom we have?

Is where we are now really due to a difference in which pre-landing checklist is being used?  I guess I'm not sure the issue is GUMPS, or PUFF, or whatever.  That is, I doubt standardizing is going to fix the problem.

I don't want to admit defeat and flat out agree that 'it is what it is', but it sure seems that way,  unfortunately.

I don't know if Mooneys are more prone to gear-ups than other retracts.  If so, I'd sure want to understand what is so different that would explain it.  IMO, the gear-up phenomenon is unique in aircraft incidents...there is some psychology at work that is fundamentally different than other accident chains.  It isn't really even a 'chain' of events; more of a memory failure.

 Personally, I have five points in my approach to an airport environment where I go through my 'gear-down and locked' verification process.  I do this because I've accepted that I may forget or be distracted at different places in an unpredictable fashion each and every time I enter the airport area.  By having multiple checkpoints I hope to alleviate a gear-up. Occasionally I've missed one, or more, but NOT all of them...

[EricJ]

31 minutes ago, wombat said:

I think that's where we are now.   But it's causing enough gear-ups that it's a financial burden on some of us.   Or at least enough of one that it's worth complaining about. 

Do you think we should do anything different from what we do now, or should we just accept this rate of gear-up accidents as part of the cost of flying with the level of freedom we have?

As long as there are humans in the loop, there will be failures.  Increased automation helps in many cases, like the automated reminders, etc., but everybody gets to manage their own risks.

[GeeBee]

Mooneys have the same gear up rate as other GA retractable, but it is an unacceptable rate. We can do better.

 

[Pinecone]

On 7/16/2024 at 3:06 PM, Echo said:

Just installed the gear installed verbal alert system I purchased used for $300.

Which system?

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, wombat said:

But maybe each aircraft should have a pre-landing checklist printed somewhere that is easy to reference?  I think my Mooney has one, but I never use it.

Mine is on the lower part of the center console.  Not exactly easy to see/use.

I use GUMPS as a quick last check on final.  JUST in case.

[wombat]

I've been making a separate 'gear is down' callout at about 100' AGL on final in addition to 'gear down and locked' on mid-field downwind and on the turn to base and the turn to final.   Hopefully that'll be enough that I don't miss all of those at once.

@Pinecone I'm pretty sure mine does too, but as you say, it's not in a very good spot for easy reference.

 

@GeeBee What would be an acceptable cost to reduce our gear up rate?   And what do you propose we do to reduce it?

[Mooneymite]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Mooneys have the same gear up rate as other GA retractable, but it is an unacceptable rate. We can do better.

 

Absolutely correct on both counts.  Unacceptable and we can do better.  I know I have said this many times on Mooneyspace:  Technology is the answer.

GUMPS, checklists and incantations have gotten us the present gear-up rate.  It isn't going to get any better using these tools.  We are human.  It is time to use non-human assistance.

Now think about the gear-up rate for expensive aircraft with EGPWS.

Technology is the obvious answer to driving the unacceptable gear-up rate down toward zero.

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

What would be an acceptable cost to reduce our gear up rate?   And what do you propose we do to reduce it?

You keep trying to put a price on good operational discipline. You have to take a more holistic approach. Annual training covering  good operational discipline and judgement is IMHO paramount. A written checklist or operational policy is of no value unless it is followed as a matter of self-discipline cemented by training. A before takeoff checklist is as important as a before landing checklist and both should be used as a matter of operational imperative.

You simply cannot say, I will do "this" to reduce gear ups rather you say, "I will operate in this manner" as part of my entire operation.  That means checklist for each phase, call outs at critical junctures and inflection points, and the self discipline to adhere to the operational policies and routines. Training is where you practice policies and routines to make them work for you and your operation.

[dkkim73]

16 hours ago, wombat said:

Some things apply to some aircraft and not others and I personally find it difficult to repeatedly follow a procedure that doesn't apply most of the time.   Most of my landings these days are still in fixed gear aircraft and it's hard to keep pointing at the gear lever that doesn't exist and say 'gear down'.  

I found myself saying "down and welded" which is kind of like my habit of saying "altitude" on the intercom when I hear center ask some other flight to "say altitude". Sort of a poor-man's Rod Machado. 

But seriously though I do think it helps keep up the habit of running GUMPS. 

[dkkim73]

15 hours ago, EricJ said:

I've never liked GUMPS because I always want to put "gear" where the 'g' is, and that screws it all up, unless you do the Gear, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Probably should check the gear again...etc., version.

So now I used PUFFS,  Power, Undercarriage, Fuel, Flaps, Seatbelts.

@EricJ 

I thought I was the only one with that problem. A habit my transition instructor taught me that I really like is to hold on to the gear lever until I've confirmed them down by two indicators (the line on the floor and the annunciator light). However, that delays my power reduction (abeam the #s in a visual/standard pattern) unless I do it out of order (tried) and also I keep confusing the G and the U even after many years. Not really confusion just a hiccup in the flow. 

PUFFS sounds like a nice flow. Dr. Know for the win!  How long did it take you to get used to it? 

ETA: Here's another one I learned from a Mooney broker. The "UPS" check on short final: Undercarraige, Propeller, Switches. 

Edited July 18 by dkkim73
adding a thought

[dkkim73]

21 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

You keep trying to put a price on good operational discipline. You have to take a more holistic approach. ....

You simply cannot say, I will do "this" to reduce gear ups rather you say, "I will operate in this manner" as part of my entire operation.  That means checklist for each phase, call outs at critical junctures and inflection points, and the self discipline to adhere to the operational policies and routines. Training is where you practice policies and routines to make them work for you and your operation.

The swiss-cheese model of error might be over-quoted, but it's for a reason. There are behavioral controls (norming, etc), environmental controls (sterile cockpit, workload mgmt), technical controls (warning systems), procedural controls (checklist discipline, individual and corporate etc). 

There seems to be a lot of magic-bullet thinking, for example the comment about "technology being the solution". If technology were the answer alone we wouldn't see things like the 737Max8 disasters, which were arguably in significant part an attempt to use technology to make up for human resource shortcomings. 

I deeply believe in both-and type solutions. I'm nerdily compulsive on my flows and checklists and I'm just a PP. I also enthusiastically bought the Microkit LHS in part for the gear warnings. etc, etc. Also have been spending a lot of thought on procedure, being newer to retracts. So this is all very close to home. 

The other meta-topic here is shaming. I think generally shame and social norming are under-rated ("I'm ok, you're ok", "you do you", "all truth is relative", blah blah). Many of us just need an ***-kicking from time to time. There are tons of sociological examples of why social norming works. And that can be via positive norms such as ideals of airmanship, professionalism, etc, or negative in not wanting to be "that guy". 

OTOH human-factors and organizational analytic approaches show that shaming and overly-simplistic norms drive error and its root causes underground. A good case study is the use of checklists in surgery (inspired by aviation). The traditional ideal of the surgeon is essentially to be perfect. There are good reasons for this ethic, but errors inevitably occurred as that ideal is simply unrealistic. Checklists and process controls helped a lot. Some technical controls, too, but people will often do stupid things just because a machine tells them to. 

Now watch me forget to take out the chocks...

[Echo]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Which system?

This little guy 

[Echo]

If I gear up my plane is totaled ($85k) in hull coverage. That was a strong motivation for me to spend on audible alarm in headsets. It is tied to gear horn. Just a small investment for not being that guy again. Love the stall!  Stall! In flare too. She has a pleasant, but forceful voice. I tell her I cheated death again. Thanks much. 

[GeeBee]

To propound on skim73 excellent post a quick analysis of Mooney operations which are well documented on this site reveals a number of pilot controlled killer items. One that has no warning is stab trim. Recently for instance there was long body fatal as a result of taking off with the stab trim still in the landing position. As an operational discipline on this item, I have the stab trim on my After Landing checklist. That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)Then I have it on the "After Start Check" to insure it is set correctly (again) and the power to it is turned on. Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

[toto]

19 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

To propound on skim73 excellent post a quick analysis of Mooney operations which are well documented on this site reveals a number of pilot controlled killer items. Recently for instance there was long body fatal as a result of taking off with the stab trim still in the landing position. As an operational discipline on this item, I have the stab trim on my After Landing checklist. That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)Then I have it on the "After Start Check" to insure it is set correctly (again) and the power to it is turned on. Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

After the good discussion we had on the Eagle accident at KOJC, I've changed my landing behavior - I used to trim nose up throughout the landing maneuver, touching down with pretty significant trim set.  Since the Eagle accident, I now put in just enough nose-up trim to reduce the control forces to a reasonable level, and I'm much more dependent on elbow grease than I used to be.  As much as I try to be sure that I never miss resetting trim in my checklist, I don't want a one-time mistake to be fatal with an immediate departure stall on takeoff.  (I assume this is a more pronounced problem on a long body than on a mid, but still.)

[dkkim73]

31 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

...That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)... Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

At the risk of asking you to tie my shoes for me, when you're at the plane next can you send me a photo of where you put the index marks? That's a great idea and I think I'll add that. Did you use touch-up paint or some kind of marker, or something else? 

The horizontal stab trim is a big safety focus item for me, too. It's a really elegant engineering solution (movable empennage) but slow to move in this plane and generates a lot of force. 

[dkkim73]

17 minutes ago, toto said:

After the good discussion we had on the Eagle accident at KOJC, I've changed my landing behavior - I used to trim nose up throughout the landing maneuver, touching down with pretty significant trim set.  Since the Eagle accident, I now put in just enough nose-up trim to reduce the control forces to a reasonable level, and I'm much more dependent on elbow grease than I used to be.  As much as I try to be sure that I never miss resetting trim in my checklist, I don't want a one-time mistake to be fatal with an immediate departure stall on takeoff.  (I assume this is a more pronounced problem on a long body than on a mid, but still.)

I'm still wrestling with the question of how best to do this procedure. My understanding is that it's more of an issue on the long-bodies, and the balance seems to be forward a lot of the time in my Acclaim (though I've started purposely loading as far aft as I can on commutes, which just feels better). 

Techniques I've heard of: 

-trim into the flare to keep forces low

-trim up on the transition but push forward, so trim is set for the flare portion, kind of an alternative approach to the above (you're moving the muscle-y part earlier in the process where you're higher off the ground, almost a reverse flare)

-keep trim more moderate and use more force in the flare

Pros of more trim: 

-Weber's law says our perception threshold is 5% of the force we are holding, e.g. so trim to neutral gives much finer feel than 10 lbs of force against a faster trim setting. So much quicker to feel and react to changes in force (feedback from flight surfaces), able to be more precise with force applied, less mentally-distracting

Pros of less trim: 

-Less dangerous on a go-around (the trim is way up for me, to be neutral at 70-75KIAS, and required forward pressure is significant; not crazy but a lot of force and should be applied quickly)

-Less risk of tail plane stall. I've felt this about 3 times, once very notably where I had to push forward a bit to stop the bobble. My transition instructor warned me this can set me up for a sudden pitch down and a prop strike. Also, it feels... "not right" to be so close to a limit of primary control authority. 

Overall I'm seeing better control and awareness with more trim than not, but I'm still very aware of the potential problem. Tips appreciated.