If you need/want the OEM 40:1 Gear Set

[N201MKTurbo]

Having one machine shop make a batch for multiple people at one time is not owner produced, it is manufacturing for sale. It's the same situation as the down lock blocks.

Seeing that you are doing all the proper engineering paperwork, why don't you apply for a PMA and do it legit?

[tony]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Having one machine shop make a batch for multiple people at one time is not owner produced, it is manufacturing for sale. It's the same situation as the down lock blocks.

Seeing that you are doing all the proper engineering paperwork, why don't you apply for a PMA and do it legit?

he's not selling at a profit, he is getting a bunch of owners together to say make one like this.  

[Matthew P]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Having one machine shop make a batch for multiple people at one time is not owner produced, it is manufacturing for sale. It's the same situation as the down lock blocks.

Seeing that you are doing all the proper engineering paperwork, why don't you apply for a PMA and do it legit?

So, I'm not getting into the manufacturing of parts for sale, however, I can make the drawings and specs available...the short answer to your question is liability...it would be upto the individual as to wether they want to have/use the gears made, it is a last ditch option that we don't currently have

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

So, I'm not getting into the manufacturing of parts for sale, however, I can make the drawings and specs available...the short answer to your question is liability...it would be upto the individual as to wether they want to have/use the gears made, it is a last ditch option that we don't currently have

If everybody had a batch of 10 made for themselves, that would be an owner produced part. If one shop makes 10 sets and they go to 10 different people, that is manufacturing. It has nothing to do with profit. 
 

The FAA has already given their opinion on this with respect to the down lock blocks. The scenario is exactly the same.  
 

There may be some relief from this with the Chevron Deference decision.

[Texas Mooney]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:58 AM, Matthew P said:

I spoke with the CEO of Mooney earlier in the week regarding the fact that the 20:1 or 40:1 gear sets, for the landing gear actuator, are unavailable and that there are only (2) rather expensive alternatives those face whose gear sets fail the Reoccurring AD. I made a proposal that he is considering ....

 

On 6/10/2024 at 10:39 PM, Matthew P said:

Well, the problem is, atleast in this instance, that even the MSCs aren't able to get these parts ordered from Mooney... I'm essentially doing the groundwork for mooney ...

 

On 6/11/2024 at 1:00 PM, 201Mooniac said:

I'm not even sure if lack of cash is the problem.  I was speaking with one MSC and they offered to collect up pre-paid orders for the parts run from their customers and other MSCs and Mooney turned them down.  This would not have been a lack of cash issue for the factory, they just didn't seem to want to get the parts run done, I have no explanation for why that might be the case.

 

1 hour ago, Matthew P said:

So, I'm not getting into the manufacturing of parts for sale, however, I can make the drawings and specs available...the short answer to your question is liability...it would be upto the individual as to wether they want to have/use the gears made, it is a last ditch option that we don't currently have

 

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If everybody had a batch of 10 made for themselves, that would be an owner produced part. If one shop makes 10 sets and they go to 10 different people, that is manufacturing. It has nothing to do with profit. 
The FAA has already given their opinion on this with respect to the down lock blocks. The scenario is exactly the same. 

This would be so, so much easier if Mooney Corp would just order the proprietary parts from their third party supplier.  This is just like the No back spring, the wing fuel gauge dials, the F air intake boot, etc, etc, etc.

Back in 2020 the entrance of new owners was proclaimed "new management is made up “entirely of pilots and Mooney owners giving the company a unique and valuable perspective going forward.”  Pollack said to Flying “Mooney has to become a parts company first,”.  Pollack's 2020 Letter to Owners is still on the Mooney Corp site : " It’s my firm belief that Mooney owners and pilots have remained true to the Mooney brand despite a factory that hasn’t always reciprocated. Well, it’s time that Mooney return the favor ..."

However, owners have offered to prepay group orders, MSC's like Top Gun have offered to prepay group orders but Mooney does nothing.  The start of this topic offer to prepay a group order "but he (CEO) needs to consider".  What is there to consider?  How long is this ridiculous debate going to go on?  

MS routinely states that Pollack or other Mooney management attend MooneyMax.  What the heck is discussed there with Mooney Corp ownership (US Financial LLC), Board members or Mooney Management?  Who are the owners beyond Pollack and what is their intention?  I know the usual comment will be "Mooney doesn't owe us answers".  True - just like past owners - but the propaganda in 2020 is just BS.

If Mooney lacks the resources and/or desire to order proprietary parts, then they should just release drawing/specs and release their vendors to sell direct.

[Paul Thomas]

17 hours ago, Echo said:

Really sad that this level of desperation is necessary.  How many electric gear Mooney aircraft are alive in the wild?  What does the gear cost to make?  The engineering has been done.  All this is known and yet a hundred percent mark up is not enough?  Just sad that the liability and who "owns" the part stops these from being produced at a huge mark up that isn't *#$& you money..

and at $500 NOT $2500 I am at *#¥& money.

Are all the electric gears affected or only the early J and older?

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Paul Thomas said:

Are all the electric gears affected or only the early J and older?

Dukes Actuators. For M20J: S/N 24-0001 - 0083, 0085 - 0377 according to the IPC.

Later Js had Eaton or Plessey actuators with the somewhat infamous noback spring.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The FAA has already given their opinion on this with respect to the down lock blocks. The scenario is exactly the same.  

As far as I know there was never an actual action on this, or at least not one that I've seen.    There was a letter that was strictly a result of the complaint, but I don't know that anything else ever happened.   AFAIK the FAA has not said that the downlock block process that was followed was inappropriate, or if there was what specifically was done wrong.

McFarlane made probably dozens of engine control cables for Mooneys as OPP, using either copied dimensions or submitted cables to copy.   That seems to be an example case that it can be done without too much trouble.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

As far as I know there was never an actual action on this, or at least not one that I've seen.    There was a letter that was strictly a result of the complaint, but I don't know that anything else ever happened.   AFAIK the FAA has not said that the downlock block process that was followed was inappropriate, or if there was what specifically was done wrong.

McFarlane made probably dozens of engine control cables for Mooneys as OPP, using either copied dimensions or submitted cables to copy.   That seems to be an example case that it can be done without too much trouble.

 

OK, maybe someone should ask for an official opinion about a group buy of owner produced parts.

 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

OK, maybe someone should ask for an official opinion about a group buy of owner produced parts.

 

Only trouble with official opinions is that sometimes they render what had heretofore been somewhat vague or "open to interpretation" into a hardened rule that, while more concisely specified, may be a much bigger PITA than the original vague rule or policy.

[Matthew P]

5 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Only trouble with official opinions is that sometimes they render what had heretofore been somewhat vague or "open to interpretation" into a hardened rule that, while more concisely specified, may be a much bigger PITA than the original vague rule or policy.

So, doesn't really matter, FAA can't tell people who they get their parts manufactured from...I think you all are missing the original posting and intent of this, it is to try to get mooney to do the right thing in supporting its loyal customers that are trying to keep 60 year old aircraft flying, they have the parts, manufacture, means to do it, but will they

 

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Dukes Actuators. For M20J: S/N 24-0001 - 0083, 0085 - 0377 according to the IPC.

Later Js had Eaton or Plessey actuators with the somewhat infamous noback spring.

Thanks, maybe I can see if a current actuator can be modified to work in the older aircraft, can't imagine they changed the engineering much

 

[Matthew P]

2 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

Are all the electric gears affected or only the early J and older?

only Dukes evidently

[KSMooniac]

39 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Thanks, maybe I can see if a current actuator can be modified to work in the older aircraft, can't imagine they changed the engineering much

 

Later actuators should drop right in, but the trouble lies in the different emergency extension mechanism.  The retrofit would be possible, but take a good bit of labor to change out the crank system for the lawnmower/pull-type system for emergency extension.

I have an actuator and emergency extension kit from my salvage '81 J that I'm keeping for emergency use in the future in case I cannot keep my Dukes airworthy.  I expect it would take XX hours to install it.

[PT20J]

51 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Later actuators should drop right in, but the trouble lies in the different emergency extension mechanism.  The retrofit would be possible, but take a good bit of labor to change out the crank system for the lawnmower/pull-type system for emergency extension.

I have an actuator and emergency extension kit from my salvage '81 J that I'm keeping for emergency use in the future in case I cannot keep my Dukes airworthy.  I expect it would take XX hours to install it.

I think Byron @jetdriven said he changed his. 

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

OK, maybe someone should ask for an official opinion about a group buy of owner produced parts.

 

Why in the heck would you want to ask an opinion on something where it’s clear they are not attacking people on (can we point to a single instance in which a good faith owner has been enforced upon for keeping their airplane alive thru opp?) and can reasonably be interpreted as legitimate?! It’s a part you.  can. Not. Get!! The whole purpose of the rule is so you don’t have to scrap your airplane because you can’t get a brass gear. Semantics? Ok, each person pays the vendor separately. Case closed, not a group buy. I just can’t for the life of me understand why you’d ask for an opinion on something that already has the leeway you need to be in compliance. Again, where is the example that FAA is concerned about this? I have not seen one so my interpretation is they aren’t. 

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Only trouble with official opinions is that sometimes they render what had heretofore been somewhat vague or "open to interpretation" into a hardened rule that, while more concisely specified, may be a much bigger PITA than the original vague rule or policy.

And they don’t want to rule on it. 

[Echo]

6 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

 

 

Yes.  Mooney wtf are you doing?

 

This would be so, so much easier if Mooney Corp would just order the proprietary parts from their third party supplier.  This is just like the No back spring, the wing fuel gauge dials, the F air intake boot, etc, etc, etc.

Back in 2020 the entrance of new owners was proclaimed "new management is made up “entirely of pilots and Mooney owners giving the company a unique and valuable perspective going forward.”  Pollack said to Flying “Mooney has to become a parts company first,”.  Pollack's 2020 Letter to Owners is still on the Mooney Corp site : " It’s my firm belief that Mooney owners and pilots have remained true to the Mooney brand despite a factory that hasn’t always reciprocated. Well, it’s time that Mooney return the favor ..."

However, owners have offered to prepay group orders, MSC's like Top Gun have offered to prepay group orders but Mooney does nothing.  The start of this topic offer to prepay a group order "but he (CEO) needs to consider".  What is there to consider?  How long is this ridiculous debate going to go on?  

MS routinely states that Pollack or other Mooney management attend MooneyMax.  What the heck is discussed there with Mooney Corp ownership (US Financial LLC), Board members or Mooney Management?  Who are the owners beyond Pollack and what is their intention?  I know the usual comment will be "Mooney doesn't owe us answers".  True - just like past owners - but the propaganda in 2020 is just BS.

If Mooney lacks the resources and/or desire to order proprietary parts, then they should just release drawing/specs and release their vendors to sell direct.

Boom.  Nailed it.

[Matthew P]

18 minutes ago, Echo said:

Boom.  Nailed it.

Don Maxwell also told Mooney that he would prepay for parts..to no avail...maybe it is at a point now that Mooney is on the verge of folding and if it folded before the parts arrived, what would happen..

[Nico1]

14 hours ago, Matthew P said:

only Dukes evidently

and ITT

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, tony said:

he's not selling at a profit, he is getting a bunch of owners together to say make one like this.  

It is a FINE line and the FAA cuts it with a razor.

Look at the saga of the down locks.

[Matthew P]

11 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

It is a FINE line and the FAA cuts it with a razor.

Look at the saga of the down locks.

Then they need to get off their dead azz and provide alternative solutions for an aging fleet seeing how their charter is safety...supposedly

[Pinecone]

How long have you been in aviation and around the FAA?????

 

[201Steve]

25 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Look at the saga of the down locks.

What’s the saga? As pointed out above, the FAA did not get involved. They responded to a complaint that is their requirement. They didn’t rule on anything, nobody was enforced upon, and that group of folks got their down blocks. 
 

Is my information incorrect? Does not sound like a saga at all. 

[Texas Mooney]

1 hour ago, outermarker said:

Mooney, if I remember correctly, is not an American company. Therefore, why would the owners(investors) create further debt when trying to offload the liability?

Make the parts....a bunch of them...then gift them away with a note of a suggested donation (not suggesting to who or what charity here) Accordingly, if I accepted these gear sets, I'm sure I would know how to show my appreciation. Chicago politics...the city that works! 

And for God sake, why invite the Fed's to "make an action"? Let the Fed's be...they have larger problems than some gear sets being given away.

You may have missed the 2020 announcement that Meijing Group sold 80% of Mooney International Corp to a Wyoming based investment group named U.S. Financial LLC.  In any event, the legal entities that own the Production Certificates and the TCDS have always been US based even when Soaring America (sub of Meijing) owned the Delaware based Mooney Corp.

MOONEY INTERNATIONAL CORP. :: Delaware (US) :: OpenCorporates

Mooney International Corp. :: Texas (US) :: OpenCorporates