Engine Corrosion & Paint Concerns (pre-buy)

[oisiaa]

I'm looking at a 1969 M20F and I have some concerns about corrosion from an external glance. Is surface rust like this on the ring gear and engine acceptable? The nuts on the cylinders have me concerned as they are quite corroded.

I believe the plane was previously based in New  Orleans near the ocean. With this surface corrosion, is internal corrosion likely on the structure too?

Take it or leave it? I'm considering offering 80,000 - 85,000 which is on the low end for an F model.

This plane actively flies. I currently live in the desert so continued corrosion will be at a very reduced rate.

Edited April 28 by oisiaa

[47U]

14 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

With this surface corrosion, is internal corrosion likely on the structure too?

This is of the utmost concern.  More so than the ring gear and cylinder base nuts.  Besides the fuselage tubing, there are a number of steel brackets and fittings in the wing and aft fuselage.  Flight control push rods.  And (of course) the spar… 

[LANCECASPER]

It looks like this airplane has sat outside for many years. The leading edges have been sandblasted by the elements. You want an airplane where the owner took pride in taking care of it. Best case scenario, you would spend a long time and maybe much greater than the purchase price getting this one where you want it to be. Worst case scenario, this would end up being a project that would never be finished.

This isn't like buying a classic car that needs to be restored where you haul it on a trailer and put it in a garage and work on it in your spare time. You will spend top dollar for a certified mechanic and you will want it in a hangar to work on it. This is all money going out with no hope of ever recovering your investment, while you're paying hangar rent every month, not flying the airplane. Do you want a project or do you want to fly an airplane? This is why airplanes sit on the ramp for years - they become nearly valueless eventually where even the salvage value vs. the cost to get it to the salvage yard doesn't make economic sense. Maybe this one isn't at that point yet, but it is heading that direction for sure.

In the long run it's less expensive to buy the best example you can find of the model you're looking for. A cheap purchase price on a poorly maintained airplane is one way that first time owners get stung badly. As an anxious buyer, maybe first time buyer, this illustration applies: a man with a some money in his pocket meets a man with some experience and the two exchange what they have - you are left with the experience and he has left with your money. If you can't afford a good example, there's no way you can afford a bad example. If this airplane is worth what you're thinking of offering, $80,000 - $85,000 I would be completely surprised. Looking at the pictures if he gets half of that he should be thrilled, much more thrilled than the buyer will be in a few weeks when it sinks in that they have bought a project. 

Any way you look at it, even if you buy the best example out there, what would a new F sell for today if they were being made? $500,000? Then plan on yearly spending for what it would take to maintain a $500,000 piece of equipment, not a $50,000 piece of equipment. You'll see that point when you start pricing parts and overhauls. 

Maybe this one is a diamond in the rough, maybe not,  or maybe it's the next one you see, but don't spend money on a pre-buy yet. Get the logs and have someone that knows what they are doing go through them with a fine tooth  comb, comparing them to all of the FAA records. You'll see things that are in the logs - they'll see things that aren't in the logs. That research is a fraction of a pre-buy and wil give you the right questions to ask. Once it passes that, then there are six things to consider: airframe, powerplant (engine & prop), fuel tanks, panel, paint and interior. If it's one where you don't have to address any of those items and it's priced right it sells the first week. If it's one that you have to address 6, or even 5, most times if the the owner gave you the airplane free of chrage you couldn't economically justify doing all of those things. It's much cheaper to buy one where someone else has written the check for these items.

[oisiaa]

Are these areas easy to inspect? I have access to the plane and would like to look at these areas before I decide to hire someone for a pre-buy.

[EricJ]

As far as rusty engines go, that ring gear and cyl nuts aren't that bad. 

If you're allowed to remove some inspection plates, there's a little one underneath at the rear of each wing root that give you a look at the unpainted part of the rear spar and the attachment point of the cage to the wing.   Those are important spots to look for corrosion.    All around inside the main gear wheel wells as well.    If you can take the avionics hatch cover off, that gets you a good look inside the tail, and at several of the spherical bearings connecting the rod sections together inside the tail.

If you have access to the inside of the airplane and have a borescope or a cheapie endoscope, take the screws off the top of the plastic panel next to the pilot and send the scope down there to look at the condition of the insulation and the steel tubes for the cage.

Those should give you a reasonable first idea of whether corrosion is huge problem or not.    If there is a lot of salt corrosion there will probably be a lot of visible surface corrosion in small patches on the outside of the airplane.   If there isn't any of that, that's at least one less red flag.

It's got bugs on the leading edges, so it's been flying.

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The leading edges have been sandblasted by the elements.

On the wings...  My wings never looked like that, but doing a lot of flying through the rain they started to.  I could see that if I never repainted that eventually they would have easily looked like that.  So as long as it is just surface and nothing really deep into the skins or inside the wing, that's an easy fix.  

I actually just repainted my wings and I got a lot of years out of the paint before I ultimately repainted the whole plane. 

Now some of the other stuff...  That's for an IA to address.

 

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, oisiaa said:

Take it or leave it? I'm considering offering 80,000 - 85,000 which is on the low end for an F model.

In this post from 2018, @deanders tells of an M20E he received as a gift.  He spent $85,000 getting it back in the air.  Not including a major overhaul.  And he is an A&P.
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/26330-20c-sitting-a-while/?do=findComment&comment=431408

[oisiaa]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

In this post from 2018, @deanders tells of an M20E he received as a gift.  He spent $85,000 getting it back in the air.  Not including a major overhaul.  And he is an A&P.
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/26330-20c-sitting-a-while/?do=findComment&comment=431408

This plane is airworthy and flies at least once a month. 

[MikeOH]

While it's good that it is being flown (my number 1 criteria when I was shopping) the rust concerns me and, as others have said, a careful look at other areas, especially the spar, is crucial before proceeding.

Not sure if you are a first time owner like I was, or already know your way around what it takes to own and maintain a plane, but I walked on planes that looked better than this one.  I wanted to buy and fly; not 'restore.'

[Fritz1]

in addition to checking for corrosion as already pointed out check for fuel tank leaks and find out when if ever the tanks have been stripped and resealed and by who, do a back of the envelope calculation what it will cost you to get this bird where you want it to be and once there what it might be worth, this gives you a rough idea what you are getting yourself into

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

In this post from 2018, @deanders tells of an M20E he received as a gift.  He spent $85,000 getting it back in the air.  Not including a major overhaul.  And he is an A&P.
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/26330-20c-sitting-a-while/?do=findComment&comment=431408

And that was 6 years ago when things were a lot less expensive and parts were much more available. 

[oisiaa]

I'm going to buy a Tesla Cybertruck instead....way cheaper in the long run and way cooler. Thanks for all of  your input. 

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck

[McMooney]

5 hours ago, oisiaa said:

I'm going to buy a Tesla Cybertruck instead....way cheaper in the long run and way cooler. Thanks for all of  your input. 

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck

i don't believe you could make an uglier vehicle, mooney any day

[cliffy]

Cybertruck= depreciating asset   But maybe cool for a while in some circles I have a friend with an electric Hummer!

Mooney= holds its own or increases in value BUT not this Mooney.

Sorry but lots better examples for sale 

My  first impression was - Run - don't walk- away from it. 

[A64Pilot]

I’ve honestly probably seen more airplanes with serious “career ending” corrosion with decent looking paint than I have ones that had obvious external corrosion, some I believe get pretty paint jobs to sell, called a Mary Carter overhaul by Rednecks.

My theory is most people including A&P’s etc don’t look for it.

You really can’t tell anything from an external look, you have to look and especially for pretty airplanes, why them? Because the potential loss is likely greater as they bring more money.

My wings look almost that bad, it’s from rain, it’s purely an appearance thing.

[Echo]

On 4/28/2024 at 8:13 PM, oisiaa said:

I'm going to buy a Tesla Cybertruck instead....way cheaper in the long run and way cooler. Thanks for all of  your input. 

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck

You do that.  Enjoy.

[Shadrach]

On 4/28/2024 at 10:28 AM, LANCECASPER said:

It looks like this airplane has sat outside for many years. The leading edges have been sandblasted by the elements. You want an airplane where the owner took pride in taking care of it. Best case scenario, you would spend a long time and maybe much greater than the purchase price getting this one where you want it to be. Worst case scenario, this would end up being a project that would never be finished.

This isn't like buying a classic car that needs to be restored where you haul it on a trailer and put it in a garage and work on it in your spare time. You will spend top dollar for a certified mechanic and you will want it in a hangar to work on it. This is all money going out with no hope of ever recovering your investment, while you're paying hangar rent every month, not flying it the airplane. Do you want a project or do you want to fly an airplane? This is why airplanes sit on the ramp for years - they become nearly valueless eventually where even the salvage value vs. the cost to get it to the salvage yard doesn't make economic sense. Maybe this one isn't at that point yet, but it is heading that direction for sure.

In the long run it's less expensive to buy the best example you can find of the model you're looking for. A cheap purchase price on a poorly maintained airplane is one way that first time owners get stung badly. As an anxious buyer, maybe first time buyer, this illustration applies: a man with a some money in his pocket meets a man with some experience and the two exchange what they have - you are left with the experience and he has left with your money. If you can't afford a good example, there's no way you can afford a bad example. If this airplane is worth what you're thinking of offering, $80,000 - $85,000 I would be completely surprised. Looking at the pictures if he gets half of that he should be thrilled, much more thrilled than the buyer will be in a few weeks when it sinks in that they have bought a project. 

Any way you look at it, even if you buy the best example out there, what would a new F sell for today if they were being made? $500,000? Then plan on yearly spending for what it would take to maintain a $500,000 piece of equipment, not a $50,000 piece of equipment. You'll see that point when you start pricing parts and overhauls. 

Maybe this one is a diamond in the rough, maybe not,  or maybe it's the next one you see, but don't spend money on a pre-buy yet. Get the logs and have someone that knows what they are doing go through them with a fine tooth  comb, comparing them to all of the FAA records. You'll see things that are in the logs - they'll see things that aren't in the logs. That research is a fraction of a pre-buy and wil give you the right questions to ask. Once it passes that, then there are six things to consider: airframe, powerplant (engine & prop), fuel tanks, panel, paint and interior. If it's one where you don't have to address any of those items and it's priced right it sells the first week. If it's one that you have to address 6, or even 5, most times if the the owner gave you the airplane free of chrage you couldn't economically justify doing all of those things. It's much cheaper to buy one where someone else has written the check for these items.

Those leading edges may have been blasted by the elements. Flying in frozen precip can do that in a matter of minutes.