Ovation3 in 1994?

[NickG]

A 1994 Ovation3??? Anyone have any insights into this ad? 1994 is before the Ovation 2.... 

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/231737633/1994-mooney-m20r-ovation3-piston-single-aircraft

[Hank]

Maybe he did the 310hp upgrade, and thinks that makes his O1 equivalent to the later-developed O3?

[NickG]

40 minutes ago, Hank said:

Maybe he did the 310hp upgrade, and thinks that makes his O1 equivalent to the later-developed O3?

Yes, he has the mod paperwork. He upgraded the engine. What are the other changes that would make and Ovation an Ovation 3?

[GeeBee]

G1000 which cannot happen.

[Greg Ellis]

So.....Can I paint a big A on the tail of my C model and sell it as an Acclaim?

[Hank]

1 hour ago, NickG said:

Yes, he has the mod paperwork. He upgraded the engine. What are the other changes that would make and Ovation an Ovation 3?

Tech and prop change with the engine STC. Not sure about airframe or landing gear changes.

When did they come out with the new Max Landing Weight? And is there a difference in fuel capacity? I dunno, never really shopped for a Long Body.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Tech and prop change with the engine STC. Not sure about airframe or landing gear changes.

When did they come out with the new Max Landing Weight? And is there a difference in fuel capacity? I dunno, never really shopped for a Long Body.

All Ovations (M20R) and Acclaims (M20TN) had the 3368 lbs. Gross Weight.

Early M20Ms (if I remember correctly up to serial number 107) came with the single puck brakes and did not have the gross weight increase.

None of the M20L (Porsche) had dual puck brakes, so no gross weight increase.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, NickG said:

A 1994 Ovation3??? Anyone have any insights into this ad? 1994 is before the Ovation 2.... 

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/231737633/1994-mooney-m20r-ovation3-piston-single-aircraft

Technically the 310hp STC by Bob Minnis on early Ovations was called a Standing Ovation. Later when Mooney did the Ovation 3 they bought an STC use for each Ovation 3 produced, and then they eventually bought the STC altogether.

Now any Ovations that are converted to 310hp buy their STC paperwork through a Mooney Service Center. (Years ago when I converted an Ovation 2 to 310hp I bought the STC paperwork directly from Bob Minnis.)

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, NickG said:

Yes, he has the mod paperwork. He upgraded the engine. What are the other changes that would make and Ovation an Ovation 3?

All Ovation 3s have 310hp, a G1000 and a GFC700 autopilot. It was introduced in 2007. 

https://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports-pistons-mooney-ovation3/

[Ed de C.]

As others have said, it's not really a 3.  

But having recently gone through the purchase process of an Ovation 3 you might want to take a good look at this one.  You've got almost all of the functional O3 features for $100k less.  Modern glass, GFC500, TKS, 310hp, mid-time engine.  Others might comment on how close to G1000 functionality the G3 touch/GTN 750 setup brings you.  I'm skeptical of the 1,100 pound useful load with TKS (mine is 933 lbs) but I've got Oxygen and G1000.   Based on my speed numbers, his advertised 175 knots on 13.2 gph is plausible (with TKS).  

Best,

Ed

[NickG]

6 minutes ago, Ed de C. said:

As others have said, it's not really a 3.  

But having recently gone through the purchase process of an Ovation 3 you might want to take a good look at this one.  You've got almost all of the functional O3 features for $100k less.  Modern glass, GFC500, TKS, 310hp, mid-time engine.  Others might comment on how close to G1000 functionality the G3 touch/GTN 750 setup brings you.  I'm skeptical of the 1,100 pound useful load with TKS (mine is 933 lbs) but I've got Oxygen and G1000.   Based on my speed numbers, his advertised 175 knots on 13.2 gph is plausible (with TKS).  

Best,

Ed

Thanks Ed, yes I'm considering it but I'm really shopping for a Bravo with the right engine time/TKS/Avionics mix that I'm looking for (2 of the three is good if the price is right). Having said that, the pickings are rather slim right now and an Ovation is tempting if a Bravo is not doable. I would rather have the turbo of a Bravo -  high heat, high DA in my area so prefer the turbo power curve.

That said, I ran a Vref on it and the Ovation 3 engine upgrade is an upgrade option listed. I filled out hours, avionics, icing etc and this Ovation (not really an O3) is about 40k over vref. I have to admit I thinks it's a little cheeky to paint it up as an O3 and list it that way.

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, Ed de C. said:

As others have said, it's not really a 3.  

But having recently gone through the purchase process of an Ovation 3 you might want to take a good look at this one.  You've got almost all of the functional O3 features for $100k less.  Modern glass, GFC500, TKS, 310hp, mid-time engine.  Others might comment on how close to G1000 functionality the G3 touch/GTN 750 setup brings you.  I'm skeptical of the 1,100 pound useful load with TKS (mine is 933 lbs) but I've got Oxygen and G1000.   Based on my speed numbers, his advertised 175 knots on 13.2 gph is plausible (with TKS).  

Best,

Ed

The biggest advantage of the G1000 is if it has the GFC700 autopilot integration.  The best autopilot I’ve ever flown behind.

[midlifeflyer]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The biggest advantage of the G1000 is if it has the GFC700 autopilot integration.  The best autopilot I’ve ever flown behind.

It was to me too…until I flew with a GFC500. 

[Ed de C.]

I'll bite:  is the GFC500 functionally different from the GFC700?  Other than the separate box and wheel (probably nice) I would have guessed both work the same.  The more I fly the G1000/GFC700 the more impressed I am with it.  Truly amazing capability.  

[Ed de C.]

If you want a turbo, get it.  

When I queried this group 9 months ago about what to get, there were basically two camps:  1) The Ovation should do the job, or 2) you want a turbo.  I'm a flatlander in Michigan with no missions out west.  But, even Mike Busch says he would not own a non-turbo. 

I was on the Acclaim bandwagon and called Jimmy Garrison to see what he had and advice.  He said, "Look Ed, if you think you'll want to be flying a lot in the flight levels then get a turbo.  But if that's not you, let me talk you into an Ovation.  The market is 3x larger for Ovations than Acclaims, the cost of ownership is less, dispatch reliability is higher, and below 8,000 feet the Ovation is just as fast."  My research indicated that at the same speed/altitude the Ovation will be 2 gph less than the Acclaim (the Bravo will be worse, but less expensive.)  The catch is that the Acclaim (and to a lesser extent the Bravo) can fly speeds the Ovation cannot and altitudes the Ovation cannot.  But as the turbo guys will point out, don't let my rationalizations dissuade you:  if you want the turbo capability, and are OK with the debatable tradeoffs, get the turbo.  100% of the turbo guys say they have no regrets.  There are some non-turbo guys that quietly say "sometimes I wish I had a turbo."  For me, the jury is still out.  

Best,

Ed

[NickG]

5 minutes ago, Ed de C. said:

If you want a turbo, get it.  

When I queried this group 9 months ago about what to get, there were basically two camps:  1) The Ovation should do the job, or 2) you want a turbo.  I'm a flatlander in Michigan with no missions out west.  But, even Mike Busch says he would not own a non-turbo. 

I was on the Acclaim bandwagon and called Jimmy Garrison to see what he had and advice.  He said, "Look Ed, if you think you'll want to be flying a lot in the flight levels then get a turbo.  But if that's not you, let me talk you into an Ovation.  The market is 3x larger for Ovations than Acclaims, the cost of ownership is less, dispatch reliability is higher, and below 8,000 feet the Ovation is just as fast."  My research indicated that at the same speed/altitude the Ovation will be 2 gph less than the Acclaim (the Bravo will be worse, but less expensive.)  The catch is that the Acclaim (and to a lesser extent the Bravo) can fly speeds the Ovation cannot and altitudes the Ovation cannot.  But as the turbo guys will point out, don't let my rationalizations dissuade you:  if you want the turbo capability, and are OK with the debatable tradeoffs, get the turbo.  100% of the turbo guys say they have no regrets.  There are some non-turbo guys that quietly say "sometimes I wish I had a turbo."  For me, the jury is still out.  

Best,

Ed

Appreciate this, Ed. My last plane (not Mooney) was NA and I kept saying to myself "I wish I had a turbo"......

[exM20K]

6 hours ago, NickG said:

A 1994 Ovation3??? Anyone have any insights into this ad? 1994 is before the Ovation 2.... 

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/231737633/1994-mooney-m20r-ovation3-piston-single-aircraft

Premium + price for a non-FIKI plane that is being represented as something it is not?

Nah. 
-dan

[NickG]

9 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Premium + price for a non-FIKI plane that is being represented as something it is not?

Nah. 
-dan

It has FIKI (at least TKS and the panel looks like the FIKI version) but still a big premium.

[exM20K]

28 minutes ago, NickG said:

It has FIKI (at least TKS and the panel looks like the FIKI version) but still a big premium.

Look more closely.  Under the tks panel is a home-made placard saying “flight into known icing prohibited.”

FIKI should carry a good premium to a no-hazard installation, which this appears to be.

-dan

[exM20K]

If you can find an Ovation DX (2004 ish), that would be a great choice, all other things being equal. The DX ovations and bravos were the side-by-side steam gauge models when G1000 was introduced, and they got the shorter panel, which is very nice. No doubt some have been glassed with stuff that is in a lot of ways better than G1000.

-dan

[NickG]

7 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Look more closely.  Under the tks panel is a home-made placard saying “flight into known icing prohibited.”

FIKI should carry a good premium to a no-hazard installation, which this appears to be.

-dan

Interestingly enough, according the folks at CAV (i spoke to them about this a couple of weeks ago) the costs for a FIKI vs inadvertent system are very close. The FIKI is few thousand more but not as much of a delta as people might think,

[exM20K]

1 minute ago, NickG said:

Interestingly enough, according the folks at CAV (i spoke to them about this a couple of weeks ago) the costs for a FIKI vs inadvertent system are very close. The FIKI is few thousand more but not as much of a delta as people might think,

But the installed cost has gotten so high that it’s way better to buy an equipped plane if you can find a suitable one.

I’m curious what they quoted for each.  NB: FIKI requires non-CAV equipment (2nd alternator and heated stall warning) that are spendy if not already so equipped.

-dan

[carusoam]

Way cool!

one of my favorite topics!

my ‘94 (O3 powered) O1 just became an O3!

But mine is more valuable than his…. My S/N is lower!!!

Whoever is doing the sales job on that airplane is showing that he is not as familiar with Mooneys as we are…

The Standing Ovation is an Awesome Aircraft…

The O1 is super cool… it can be upgraded, at will, to be similar to the G1000 with waas capability, without the drag of working with both Mooney and Garmin…

 

Now…. If you have the unlimited stack of Benjamins in your aviation account…. There is no reason to avoid the Acclaim…

If you are still dragging teen agers around in the back, and never exceed 12.5k’…. Trying to get the right Acclaim will be an extra challenge…

15 years or so with the O1… I would gladly swap for an Acclaim….

just because…

 

PP thoughts only… +1 for Jimmy’s guidance!

 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 20 by carusoam

[NickG]

42 minutes ago, exM20K said:

But the installed cost has gotten so high that it’s way better to buy an equipped plane if you can find a suitable one.

I’m curious what they quoted for each.  NB: FIKI requires non-CAV equipment (2nd alternator and heated stall warning) that are spendy if not already so equipped.

-dan

Jason fro CAV informally quoted around 60K for either one (I think inadvertent was a few grand less). This was for a Bravo with Dual alternators. Biggest difference was dual pumps and heated stall warning sensor.

[LANCECASPER]

It was to me too…until I flew with a GFC500. 

I prefer an autopilot where the servos don’t have to be changed out every year or two.

There are some people on their 3rd and 4th sets of servos on the GFC500. It’s possible that they now have that remedied, but I have heard of a couple of cases where the newest version servos have failed . . . so we’ll see. The size and robustness (if that’s a word) of the GFC600 and GFC700 servos compared to the GFC500 is remarkable. Garmin’s advertising campaign when they first introduced their new autopilots (GFC500 & GFC600) showed a picture of a GFC600 servos and said that you should judge an autopilot by its servos. I think they were correct. 

Their original plan on the website and their printed materials was to certify the GFC600 for the long body Mooneys, but everyone started lining up for the GFC500 due to a lower price. They offered to use my Bravo that I had at the time to use to certify the GFC500. They would have had it three months and put some hours on it and I would have had an autopilot on the deal, but after reading the fine print about a limitation on the autopilot I declined. I offered my airplane for use to certify the GFC600 and they expressed interest and then later canceled that plan. I think it’s safe to say that there are a lot of pilots that own a GFC500 that are not clear about the the limitation - that if they lose their GPS (signal jamming, testing, unit malfunction, antenna malfunction, etc), they cannot fly a coupled ILS approach. It needs a valid GPS signal to fly a coupled approach of any kind. Not that they shouldn’t be able to hand fly it, but in the heat of the moment not really understanding what just happened adds confusion and can lead to a series of bad decisions. That limitation doesn’t exist on the GFC600 and 700.

The GFC500 is still the best choice that’s available for Mooneys on a panel upgrade and I’m confident that they’ll get the servos that are still failing or the bad installations figured out . I just wish Garmin had gone through with what they outlined originally - certification of the GFC600 for long body Mooneys.