Review of Highlights at Annual

[EricJ]

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

 And reading @EricJ response the FAA is saying we can't trust the safety of the log books with the IA. 

The context of the comments was the idea that in the event of an incident or other event resulting in an investigation that needs to look at the records, if the records aren't in order, e.g., the last annual inspection wasn't properly recorded, that mostly comes down on the owner/operator since they're the one responsible for maintaining those records according to the regs.   Continuing that example, if the last annual wasn't recorded and there's an incident, it'll again come down on the owner/operator for operating an aircraft that is essentially unairworthy without proof an annual.   So the point wasn't so much that shops may not be trustworthy as it is that the risk really comes down on the owner/operator.   If the risk is on the you, some may want more control over that risk rather than delegating it to somebody else who may not appreciate the risk as much.

This isn't limited to annual inspection records, it can be for anything, especially if that particular thing is found to be related to an incident.

It's just something to think about when managing your logbooks and other records.

[Yetti]

24 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The context of the comments was the idea that in the event of an incident or other event resulting in an investigation that needs to look at the records, if the records aren't in order, e.g., the last annual inspection wasn't properly recorded, that mostly comes down on the owner/operator since they're the one responsible for maintaining those records according to the regs.   Continuing that example, if the last annual wasn't recorded and there's an incident, it'll again come down on the owner/operator for operating an aircraft that is essentially unairworthy without proof an annual.   So the point wasn't so much that shops may not be trustworthy as it is that the risk really comes down on the owner/operator.   If the risk is on the you, some may want more control over that risk rather than delegating it to somebody else who may not appreciate the risk as much.

This isn't limited to annual inspection records, it can be for anything, especially if that particular thing is found to be related to an incident.

It's just something to think about when managing your logbooks and other records.

Well since we know most incidents are Part 91 pilots flying without a flight plan, I think we are safe.

[Pinecone]

The IA does not need the original log books.  I have mine all scanned and in a PDF.  THAT goes to the shop.

The shop does a sticker that has the info and the sign off.  I stick that in the logbook and then scan it and append it to the digital log book.

I also have AdLog system and I am fine with that going to the shop.   It would be a pain to go back through all the ADs and document the status, but not that big of a deal.

[Fly Boomer]

22 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The IA does not need the original log books.  I have mine all scanned and in a PDF.  THAT goes to the shop.

The shop does a sticker that has the info and the sign off.  I stick that in the logbook and then scan it and append it to the digital log book.

I also have AdLog system and I am fine with that going to the shop.   It would be a pain to go back through all the ADs and document the status, but not that big of a deal.

Do you remember off the top what the AdLog costs?

[Fly Boomer]

24 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The IA does not need the original log books.  I have mine all scanned and in a PDF.  THAT goes to the shop.

From the AI's perspective, my scanned logs are vastly superior to the originals.  I unstapled and scanned everything that was in there.  When printed, the pages of the log are slightly larger and more legible.  I also have a spreadsheet that summarizes every log entry's date, actions taken, part numbers, serial numbers, and a reference back to log, page, and item on page.  If I don't like the content or wording of the sticky, I can get that corrected before it goes into the log.  Better in every way.

[Shadrach]

On 3/4/2024 at 10:57 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Fair enough. I use it and haven’t had huge mess issues. Probably took me 1 pint or possibly 2 to do the wings and tail this year.  I do it every 2 years even though I live somewhere relatively dry and it’s hangared.  It did fog the inside of my IAs shop though, but I told him I wouldn’t charge for the corrosion control.  Possibly im just too paranoid for corrosion.  This year I also took the wing root fairings off and did acf on the wing attach bolts.

I have had the interior out but we don’t do it every year.  I was just wondering how many other people don’t take it out every year.

I haven’t fogged mine as the alclad in the wings shows almost no signs of corrosion and everything else is covered with zinc chromate (if not at the factory then by me ).  Back in ‘08 I painted the cage with two part, zinc chromate epoxy. I finished with a top coat of semi gloss, light gray and then cut to fit sections of closed cell foam to cover all sheet metal. We inspected the cage annually for the first few years…then semi annually. Now it’s more like every 5 years. No changes in condition noted after 16 years.

[exM20K]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:00 PM, jetdriven said:

It depends, but if you take a very critical look at it when you first get the plane, and it’s hangared and it never gets rained on and you have the SB 208 compliant insulation that doesn’t touch any of the tubes you’re probably good for a quite a long time, a few years anyways. 
If the plane lives outside, I would make sure absolutely that all of the windows seals and the pilot storm windows seal are 100% watertight. I mean pressure washer, water, tight. And even then I would look at the steel fuselage tubes every couple or three years.

Especially for turbo planes that spend time in the cold teens and above, landing in a humid environment will bring about condensation all of the cold-soaked stuff in the plane.  Steel, with more thermal mass than aluminum sheets, is especially prone to this.  Electronics like cameras and computers stored in the baggage also can get moist on landing.
 

I fog the plane every annual, and while it is a little “weepy” in places, the only real issue for me would be if I planned to paint the plane in the near future.

-dan

[Yetti]

Put the flare in the ittty bitty tubing on the MP line and reassembled.  Recowled the plane.   Test flight later today.

Oh and I polished the spinner, so that should add about 10 mph

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Do you remember off the top what the AdLog costs?

About $140

 

[dkkim73]

6 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

From the AI's perspective, my scanned logs are vastly superior to the originals.  ...

Another thing you can do is run the PDF scans through an OCR program. I received the majority of my logs in PDF form as well buying the plane, and did this. Makes keyword search very easy. Have shared Dropbox links with AP/IAs and other helpful folks, makes it quick for them to look for specific info. 

Over time I hope to abstract more of the important data into a spreadsheet as you have done, also. 

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Another thing you can do is run the PDF scans through an OCR program. I received the majority of my logs in PDF form as well buying the plane, and did this. Makes keyword search very easy. Have shared Dropbox links with AP/IAs and other helpful folks, makes it quick for them to look for specific info. 

Over time I hope to abstract more of the important data into a spreadsheet as you have done, also. 

 

I don't have an OCR that can make sense of the chicken scratching in my logs -- that's what the Excel summary does.  Except I had to do it by eyeball and keyboard.

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Do you remember off the top what the AdLog costs?

Before you pay for AdLog, check with your shop to see if they already subscribe to an AD system, most do now days.  If they do, then no need to duplicate the cost for AdLog.  But you can pick up 3-Ring binder notebooks to have the similar Airframe, Avionics, Prop, etc., etc. system which is nice when looking up different things.  

If you work with a local IA/Mechanic that obviously isn't going to pay the expense of the AD system, then you might consider AdLog as it will give the mechanic a full list of what they need to check every year for YOUR plane (by S/N I believe).  I had AdLog years ago before my shop got it's own system for All Planes and it worked great with the list every year of what needed to be checked by date or time and if new ADs came out that year.  (At least that's how I remember it working.)

 

[Pinecone]

The nice thing about AdLog is it transportable.   You can switch shops.

IMO, no matter how good your shop is, an occasional annual by another shop can be a very good thing.

[PeteMc]

41 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The nice thing about AdLog is it transportable.   You can switch shops.

Maybe I'm wrong on this based on the few shops I've been in that others I know go to (I went to the same shop for years).  But all of them seem to now subscribe to an AD Service (maybe the same one).  I think they sort of had to move to this or have a huge stack of paper and spend hours and hours to keep their local records up to date for all the ADs for the planes they're servicing.   My logbook stickers, that I'm pretty sure is printed by the same software that has the ADs, makes note of everything that was complied with.  So if I go to a new shop, they just look up my S/N for what's needed for my plane and confirm that I'm up to date as of the last Annual. 

And I'm NOT against AdLog, I think it was an excellent option when it came out, but there's no reason to duplicate the cost.  That single plane service has grown to a service that contains all planes that the shop now pays for vs the pilot.  (Well, they directly pay for it and we get the cost added back into the hourly rate. )   So in theory you can travel to any shop you want to and not have an issue. 

 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

Maybe I'm wrong on this based on the few shops I've been in that others I know go to (I went to the same shop for years).  But all of them seem to now subscribe to an AD Service (maybe the same one).  I think they sort of had to move to this or have a huge stack of paper and spend hours and hours to keep their local records up to date for all the ADs for the planes they're servicing.   My logbook stickers, that I'm pretty sure is printed by the same software that has the ADs, makes note of everything that was complied with.  So if I go to a new shop, they just look up my S/N for what's needed for my plane and confirm that I'm up to date as of the last Annual. 

And I'm NOT against AdLog, I think it was an excellent option when it came out, but there's no reason to duplicate the cost.  That single plane service has grown to a service that contains all planes that the shop now pays for vs the pilot.  (Well, they directly pay for it and we get the cost added back into the hourly rate. )   So in theory you can travel to any shop you want to and not have an issue. 

 

You might be shocked to find out that perhaps more than half of the planes we see the first time don’t have an AD list at all.  Mooneys  aren’t so bad to create one, but some of these pipers have 35 or more airframe AD’s, and they are all hand scribbled in ink from 30 or 40 years ago, or even longer, and some of them were never addressed to begin with anywhere. Back in Texas, it was assumed, but around the East Coast, it’s almost like nobody’s ever heard of it before. And we have IA’s signing  the logbook for an annual every year and the entry is shorter than what I make for an oil change. “Jacked up airplane greased it, far part 43 appendix D annual, all AD’s complied with.” That’s not even phoning it in.  A decade of those and the plane shows up from Barnstormers as a complete mess. You can’t compress water.  

[carusoam]

Champion spark plugs…again?

Add that to the list.

-a-

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

You might be shocked to find out that perhaps more than half of the planes we see the first time don’t have an AD list at all.

You mean a specific list in the Logbook or in the AD Service I'm think most shops are using now days?  And if you're in a shop I'm curious, if you know, are most shops now are using an AD Service or not? 

And if you're using some sort of Software, at the end of the Annual does your system print out a current AD List for the Logbook?  

 

   

[Hank]

When my IA retired a few years ago, I had to find a new shop. The new guy was moaning about having to build my AD list, and was pleased when I gave him the printout from the previous guy. I like having that 4 or 5 page list of ADs printed out, with date and method of compliance or if it doesn't apply and why.

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, PeteMc said:

You mean a specific list in the Logbook or in the AD Service I'm think most shops are using now days?  And if you're in a shop I'm curious, if you know, are most shops now are using an AD Service or not? 

And if you're using some sort of Software, at the end of the Annual does your system print out a current AD List for the Logbook?  

 

   

If it was written neatly in the back of the log that would be great. But most aren’t. And most don’t have the 13 page printout we generate from TData.  

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Maybe I'm wrong on this based on the few shops I've been in that others I know go to (I went to the same shop for years).  But all of them seem to now subscribe to an AD Service (maybe the same one).  I think they sort of had to move to this or have a huge stack of paper and spend hours and hours to keep their local records up to date for all the ADs for the planes they're servicing.   My logbook stickers, that I'm pretty sure is printed by the same software that has the ADs, makes note of everything that was complied with.  So if I go to a new shop, they just look up my S/N for what's needed for my plane and confirm that I'm up to date as of the last Annual. 

And I'm NOT against AdLog, I think it was an excellent option when it came out, but there's no reason to duplicate the cost.  That single plane service has grown to a service that contains all planes that the shop now pays for vs the pilot.  (Well, they directly pay for it and we get the cost added back into the hourly rate. )   So in theory you can travel to any shop you want to and not have an issue. 

Hmm, and I just found that my plane has been through an annual every year and had an AD missed from 1989 on the seat belt buckles.

You are assuming a LOT in thinking that all shops have an online AD system and even a bigger assumption that they all use the same system.

[Yetti]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

When my IA retired a few years ago, I had to find a new shop. The new guy was moaning about having to build my AD list, and was pleased when I gave him the printout from the previous guy. I like having that 4 or 5 page list of ADs printed out, with date and method of compliance or if it doesn't apply and why.

The first AD Log with my IA, he made me do it and then we went over the questions.    One of the reasons for getting a bit newer Mooney is a fair amount of ADs don't apply.

 

Went for the RTS flight yesterday.   It is true that bad instrumentation makes a engine run more poorly.   Good instrumentation and you forget about the engine running so it runs good.    There was a cessna that had been parked for several days and fired it up and took off.   No mag check or letting the oil warm.    But then I could not figure out why I was climbing so slow and figured out that I left the gear down.

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

You are assuming a LOT in thinking that all shops have an online AD system and even a bigger assumption that they all use the same system.

Never assumed they used the same one, but I'm guessing it is a small market.  So that's why I was wondering.

And DO most shops use some sort of AD Software?  That is a question I'm curious about that came out of this discussion.  I don't know yet, but I'm about to find out when I go to a new shop for the first time in decades.  One of the big downsides of moving, no real "Mooney" shop here.  I know they work on Mooneys and the top guy seems like he knows what he's doing, as does the one guy that I meet that works for him.  But I'm guessing it's still going to be an adventure....

 

[Pinecone]

Well there are several systems for owners.  AdLog is not the only one

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Well there are several systems for owners.  AdLog is not the only one

 

And there are multiple paid systems in use by shops, and there's the FAA Dynamic Regulatory System that is a little clunky but free for anybody to use.

So shops have a lot of options.   There's no reason to assume a shop does one thing or other, or perhaps nothing at all.

[Pinecone]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

And there are multiple paid systems in use by shops, and there's the FAA Dynamic Regulatory System that is a little clunky but free for anybody to use.

So shops have a lot of options.   There's no reason to assume a shop does one thing or other, or perhaps nothing at all.

That was my point.  If you change shops they may not use the same system.  And I am not sure if the data entered by one shop is available to another shop.

But with AdLog, there is a paper trail that can be transported from shop to shop.