Let the games begin - MAJOR Avionics Upgrade.

[Danb]

Terry big difference once you drive behind your own panel. Unfortunately I get stuck flying using only a part of my available stuff.  Then your thrown a reroute with a coupling crossing altitudes and calculate in my head when we can just enter the plan with the stuff using VNAV etc. I’d bet the younger pilots who grew up on glass utilize much more of the capabilities 

[McMooney]

On 4/30/2024 at 7:39 PM, Pinecone said:

Just got back after a trans Atlantic cruise, expecting to be test flying this week, but the work is now officially over time.

I will go see it on Thursday.  The left and center panels are cut, powder coated, and laser etched.   They are working on the CB panel.

Interior should have been done, but the shop is still working on it, but promise to start installing next week,

what cruise and how long was it, really want to do this

[Pinecone]

Coming down to the wire.  Engine was run yesterday.   They ran across a couple of things.  One is a wiring issue.  One is a wrong range sensor issue.

The big one has nothing to do with the install, but both alternators had issues.  One had no output, the other ramped up to 32 volts then the overvoltage circuit worked and tripped the breaker.  Hoping is not the voltage regulators.

Interior is about 85% done and should be completed tomorrow.  Weighing the plane on Friday.

All that is great, but the leaking rocker cover, that we thought was fixed, is still leaking (see thread in Modern Mooneys).  Hoping it is not a cracked head.

 

[Pinecone]

IT FLIES.

Install is completed, oil leak is fixed and we test flew the plane yesterday.

A few minor tweaks to be done.  I am headed to Garmin for training, so will pick up the plane late next week and start putting hours on it to find any remaining things that need to be tweaked.

WOOHOO,

[Marc_B]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I am headed to Garmin for training

Good time to stop by Joe's and Jack Stack for some good BBQ!! (who needs an excuse for that?!?!)

[Pinecone]

My airplane is HOME and in my hangar.  Short flight to bring if from the installer.

So far, nothing wrong.  There were a few things from the test flight, but they tweaked those.  I do need to do some testing of the autopilot pitch.  On initial climb out it seems to hunt some, but then after leveling off it is rock solid.  It might need the new alternative gain settings.  But perfectly flyable now.

Now that it is done, I want to give a BIG thumbs up to Smart Avionics at N71.   They have been super to work with and very accommodating to my wild ideas.   If you are looking to do an avionics upgrade, I would highly suggest them.  There are 2 Mooneys there now and one coming next week. 

[shawnd]

Congrats @Pinecone! You need to post some pictures! :-)

BTW - what did you end up doing for the switches? Keeping the ETA rockers or going Carling?

[Pinecone]

There are some pictures near completion earlier, but I will get some final ones shortly.

I went will all toggle switches.  

[MikeOH]

@Pinecone

So, start (drop-off) to finish (final pick-up) how late was it, and how over original quoted price was it?

Don't need to share $$, just a percentage.  It seems, overall, you were happy with the shop so I'm curious what kind of overages are deemed acceptable these days for time and money.

[Pinecone]

It was about 8 weeks late on the avionics.  Oil leak took a couple of extra weeks due my mechanic having to take the time to travel to the avionics shop.

The tech worked on the plane pretty much the entire time, not being pulled to other projects.

The only amount over the original quote was for changes I made.  Yes, really.

[Max Clark]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

It was about 8 weeks late on the avionics.  Oil leak took a couple of extra weeks due my mechanic having to take the time to travel to the avionics shop.

The tech worked on the plane pretty much the entire time, not being pulled to other projects.

The only amount over the original quote was for changes I made.  Yes, really.

Outside of oil leek about how long start to finish?

[Pinecone]

4.5 months.  And that included some time for a conference and the tech getting sick twice. 

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

4.5 months.  And that included some time for a conference and the tech getting sick twice. 

The counter to me wanting to do the same thing to my panel. That’s a long time to be grounded. 

[Pinecone]

It is a pretty large job.  To start with, they removed 53 pounds of wiring.  Then had to put in the wiring for all the equipment from scratch.

Personal choice, but this is a once in a lifetime upgrade.

 

[shawnd]

I am about to start in a month or so here in the PNW. Quote is for 260 hours and 10 weeks downtime. Full strip with new panel, eis and senders. I will post a thread on it when I get close. Got advice on who to avoid as well. 

[Max Clark]

I understand the amount of work and the time required, just a bitter pill to swallow.

[shawnd]

Yes agree. But figured this is a good way to compare the jobs without getting into AMU aspects. I have also received quotes for 590 and 420 hours here in the PNW 

[toto]

I did a similar project last year, and there’s a lot of useful information online for coming up to speed on the new gear. If you take all of the hours that you would normally spend flying and invest those hours on avionics self-training, you’ll be way ahead when the plane comes out of the shop.

You’ll have to invest the time one way or the other, and spending that time in advance will make you much more confident when you start flying your new panel. 

[toto]

2 minutes ago, shawnd said:

Yes agree. But figured this is a good way to compare the jobs without getting into AMU aspects. I have also received quotes for 590 and 420 hours here in the PNW 

I wouldn’t get too attached to the hours estimate. A lot of the calendar time is on random stuff that you wouldn’t predict going in — my shop had a week here, week there trying to troubleshoot minor settings issues with Garmin, where the actual time spent working on the plane was minimal, but the time spent waiting to hear back from Garmin support could be multiple days. 

[shawnd]

As long as they don’t charge for the extra hours  Wait is okay and understandable. 

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

4.5 months.  And that included some time for a conference and the tech getting sick twice. 

Mine took 6 months with one person doing all the work except for installing some antennas.  They were installed by a second person.  It was supposed to take 10 weeks.  On the plus side there were no mistakes.  To quote the installer, "In six months you won't remember how long it took, only the benefits of what you have".  He was right.

I believe my installation at the time was one of the most complex of any on this forum.  It was done early on when Garmin didn't have any diagrams of such an interface.  The planning took a month.  Avionics to be interfaced: G500, Gad 43e, GTN 750, GTN 650, GTS 800, GTX 330ES, GDL69A, GDL 88, GMA 35c, ESI 2000, WX500, MVP 50P, AOA, Shadin Miniflo-L, Flight Stream 210, and yoke interface for the Aera 696.  Over time the system morphed to the G500 TXi, GTN 750Xi, GTN 650Xi, GCU 485, GTX 335, G5, GFC 500, LHS, and yoke interface for the Aera 760.  I also added Aero LEDs for taxi and landing lights, and the Whelan Strobes and NAV light combination.  Later Whelan came out with an LED replacement for the Recognition lights, so those were added.  Except for the GFC 500 install which took 3 weeks, the down time for the replacement avionics were in days, not weeks.  Although the cost at first glance might seem excessive, I got significant money from the sales of the old avionics and old KFC 150 autopilot, and large rebates from Garmin and EI from purchases made at Oshkosh.

Luckily at the time of the original installation I didn't know what I didn't know.  In hindsight I'm glad I did what I did, but I wouldn't want to go through it again.

[donkaye]

38 minutes ago, toto said:

I did a similar project last year, and there’s a lot of useful information online for coming up to speed on the new gear. If you take all of the hours that you would normally spend flying and invest those hours on avionics self-training, you’ll be way ahead when the plane comes out of the shop.

You’ll have to invest the time one way or the other, and spending that time in advance will make you much more confident when you start flying your new panel. 

While my installation was taking place I read every manual several times.  I highlighted items along the way that I thought important.  Getting the new avionics was like going from the Dark Ages into the light.  Certainly there was a learning curve, but it was a curve I wanted to be on.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, shawnd said:

Yes agree. But figured this is a good way to compare the jobs without getting into AMU aspects. I have also received quotes for 590 and 420 hours here in the PNW 

I would say that those are actually more realistic.

But for the 260 hour one, ask what happens if it takes longer?

Mine was expected to be 300 - 400 hours.  It was longer

[Pinecone]

46 minutes ago, donkaye said:

While my installation was taking place I read every manual several times.  I highlighted items along the way that I thought important.  Getting the new avionics was like going from the Dark Ages into the light.  Certainly there was a learning curve, but it was a curve I wanted to be on.

I would HIGHLY recommend to anyone doing this, go to a Garmin Instructor lead class.  They now do separate classes for G500TXi and G3X Touch, both with GTN navigators.  2 days of hands on with all the instructors were CFIIs.

I have been flying with a GTN-650Xi for 18 months and have a few hours in G3X Touch, plus time with G500 and G1000.  I learned a LOT.

You can go to Garmin, or they do them regionally.  But the regional ones cost more.  Also, if you do it at Garmin, you get a tour of the factory.

[Marc_B]

I think the “8-10 weeks” is a common time estimate that’s probably not often met. There are a lot of things that can happen in a shop in 4-6 months (illness, vacation, working in AOG issues, etc.). I went from G500, GTN750/650, ESI500 standby, KFC-150 upgrade to G500TXi, GTN750/650Xi, G5, GFC500, GDL69A SXM with removal and replacement of ADC/AHRS/magnetometer and all legacy equipment for a great trade in value towards the new equipment, and a completely new powdercoated and etched panel and placards. Estimated 8-10weeks. Took 12 weeks, but close to a month if that was working with IAI to customize and troubleshoot a custom annunciator. End result is fantastic and I’m super happy. For a comprehensive modernization that’s fully integrated the wait is worth it if this is an aircraft you intend to keep for a while. 
 

To minimize downtime/maximize your experience:

1) have the shop have all parts in shop before they start. Nothing throws wrenches like a sudden back order or out of stock…sometimes this completely stops a project and then the shop shifts gears and it takes a while to get back to you.  
2) Have a clear idea of everything you want done and have a comprehensive plan with your own installer before you start.  Changes to your plan lead to #1 and add downtime.  
3) Anticipate little things you should address before you start and be up front with your installer. Deciding halfway in that you want to replace your defrost hoses, or finding out at the end stages that you should have replaced something adds time.
4) do everything once and do it right the first time. A staged plan will absolutely include redundant labor to uninstall and reinstall what you have already done. It adds time and money. Also a complete panel is the time that you best have things opened and easily accessible. Future changes increase the chance of errors, shortcuts, or workarounds. Doing it all at once usually results in doing it more cleanly.
5) be realistic with what you want and what you can afford. Discuss the pros and cons of your choices with your installer and listen to their suggestions. But also realize that sometimes what’s easier for them isn’t necessarily best for you. Don’t be afraid to spend extra time and money to get it just right when this is the equipment you’ll be using for hopefully as long as you own that aircraft. For me this was the annunciator…more $$ and time than I anticipated but it allowed everything to fit in the radio stack where I wanted instead of having to completely rearrange the entire left side of the panel. For me, worth it.  6) find other pilots who have done it before and learn about what works well together and what doesn’t. There’s a reason that many people go entirely with one manufacturer. But even Garmin has quirks with certified vs experimental product line/team. Somethings just don’t play together well. If you don’t have to be a test pilot, don’t. But having to only adjust baro/alt/heading in a single place and all equipment syncs is just magic. 
7) find an instructor who is very familiar with your avionics, spend time reading your pilot guides/AFMS in entirety, take the online or in person Garmin course, and spend the personal time learning how to use your equipment, how it works and what happens when it doesn’t. In my mind it’s sad to have an amazingly capable panel and a pilot that doesn’t know how to use and optimize it. You spent all this time and money, enjoy it cause it’s pretty freakin awesome!

edit: one more…use a known shop you or others have had great experience with.  This isn’t a learning project and you want someone who knows how all of this works and the quirks of installs.  Trying to cheap out on your installer may cost you more in the long run.  Get estimates from a few shops but don’t put the most weight on lowest cost. Important shop choices are quality, comprehensive panel experience, proximity to you, cost.