Garmin G1000NXi upgrade

[Alan Maurer]

Hello Mooney People

Who can explain the actual reason why the original G1000 cannot be upgraded to the NXi? 

Is this a Mooney issue or a Garmin issue............hard to understand!!!

 

Thanks

Alan 

N913 ND  2008 Ovation M20R

 

[Schllc]

Both myself and a friend of mine approached Mooney with an acclaim and an ovation, both with a legacy g1000, and made an offer to Mooney to pay all the associated costs with the certification to get our two planes done, and open the path for all the rest of the fleet.
When we contacted Garmin about this, they said Mooney had to do it, or go out of business so Garmin could. 
In the beginning the factory gave us lip service about cooperating, then they stopped responding to all communication regarding the issue. 
I don’t understand how they could lose in this situation, but apparently they have some problem that they didn’t want to share that precludes them from completing the task. 
We will have to wait for new ownership, or a change of heart. 
Perhaps if a number of people agreed to pay for the upgrade ahead of time it could incentivize them. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

Both myself and a friend of mine approached Mooney with an acclaim and an ovation, both with a legacy g1000, and made an offer to Mooney to pay all the associated costs with the certification to get our two planes done, and open the path for all the rest of the fleet.
When we contacted Garmin about this, they said Mooney had to do it, or go out of business so Garmin could. 
In the beginning the factory gave us lip service about cooperating, then they stopped responding to all communication regarding the issue. 
I don’t understand how they could lose in this situation, but apparently they have some problem that they didn’t want to share that precludes them from completing the task. 
We will have to wait for new ownership, or a change of heart. 
Perhaps if a number of people agreed to pay for the upgrade ahead of time it could incentivize them. 

I think there may be a few reasons:

- There was some more motivation to do this when Jonny Pollack, one of Mooney's owners, owned an Acclaim, but since he sold his Acclaim earlier this year, I think the motivation may have gone down (https://www.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N705SE). Just my opinion.

- I also wonder if they don't owe Garmin some money on the avionics for the last of the Ultras that were manufactured. This has happened more than a few times in Mooney's history where vendors didn't get paid. Again just speculation.

- Although the G1000 NXi is approved in the U and V (Ultras), those are different airframes as far as the FAA is concerned. I would imagine there would be flight testing required which would involve resources they don't have. More likely.

- After a lot of begging from owners, Mooney spent the money a few years ago and offered a WAAS upgrade to 200-300 early G1000 owners and I don't think there were nearly as many takers as they thought. I believe they spent way more money than they ever recovered on that project. Highly likely.

In my case I'd rather have this upgrade over even the gross weight increase that they had been working on. Without the gross weight increase the airplanes are still airworthy. Without an NXi and future upgrade path, virtually every airplane they built since 2005 could be adversely affected, even though the NXI doesn't really give much more capability than faster processors and wireless transfer of flight plans. 

[Schllc]

There were a few other features on the NXI that were nice like visual approaches and the way frequencies are identified, but over all, not a whole lot.  The transfer of the flight plans is something I really miss.  I get rerouted several times every time I fly north of Tampa.  I do not miss that stupid keyboard.  it was in a bad location and with the flight plan transfer is almost completely useless.

This instance however is one where I think the FAA is a complete failure.  There is absolutely no reason this upgrade shouldn't be plug and play for every single aircraft certified with the g1000.  It is just plain stupid and counter to good safety of the fleet.

[dkkim73]

Not an immediate need for me, but following the thread with interest for a number of reasons. I agree with Ray's point about reasonability. 

Naïve question: if STC's can be obtained by 3rd-party suppliers and retrofitters, where is the threshold that is crossed requiring manufacturer involvement? Ie. could an ad hoc corporation (say of Mooney owners) do a project to achieve this? I'm not saying it wouldn't be much easier for Mooney, just curious. Or is there a separate category where it is more deeply "baked into" the type certificate in this case? Or maybe even contractual with Garmin? 

Much simpler question: Can any sort of external keyboard be added to the G1000? I've always thought a keyboard for an FMS would be a useful thing, looking at those Ultra and Cirrus photos (though it sounds like you didn't like it very much). 

David

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Not an immediate need for me, but following the thread with interest for a number of reasons. I agree with Ray's point about reasonability. 

Naïve question: if STC's can be obtained by 3rd-party suppliers and retrofitters, where is the threshold that is crossed requiring manufacturer involvement? Ie. could an ad hoc corporation (say of Mooney owners) do a project to achieve this? I'm not saying it wouldn't be much easier for Mooney, just curious. Or is there a separate category where it is more deeply "baked into" the type certificate in this case? Or maybe even contractual with Garmin? 

Much simpler question: Can any sort of external keyboard be added to the G1000? I've always thought a keyboard for an FMS would be a useful thing, looking at those Ultra and Cirrus photos (though it sounds like you didn't like it very much). 

David

While I don’t have a super descriptive answer, the answer in this case is no, you cannot do it without the factory. 
The only other path is for Mooney to go out of business.  If that happened and they abandoned the TC, garmin could then do the upgrade. 
the keyboard would be nice on our g1000, but it’s useless on the NXI with the flight stream 510, bc it’s easier to use your phone or iPad. 
the keyboard is not QWERTY so it’s real inconvenient…

[kortopates]

Not at all my area of expertise but I really suspect Mooney may no longer have the authority with their Production certificate to tckle such a job. I beleive may seriosuly underestimate the hoops they have to go through to made a mod to the TCDS to make this happen. They no longer have to staff to populate all the roles necessary to enable restarting any production beyond parts even if you paid the cash up front. 

But Garmin will have the same issue that Mooney ran into when they invested to provide the WAAS G1000 upgrade. After pressing the factory for years, few owners where willing to pay for it that they had to loose money and Garmin will be even less motivated to loose money taking on the project despite much deeper pockets to work with. The Nxi upgrade will have to be significantly more costly than the WAAS upgrade. Although owners should get most of that investment back in increased resale value down the road that argument obviously didn't win enough Mooney owners for more affordable WAAS upgrade.

Although a 3rd party could develop their own STC in theory they can't do it without Garmin's support to provide the baseline - and that's not going to happen.

I only wish we have more forward Mooney owners out there like we have on Mooneyspace to push for this.

And @Schllc my hats off to you for your efforts in trying to help the factory pursue this.

But I think its naive to blame the FAA for this

Edited December 14, 2023 by kortopates

[GeeBee]

I am slowly coming to the belief that Mooney would be better off in Chapter 11 where someone with the vision, passion, commitment and capital could buy the old Mooney out for the debt and truly start to support the existing owners as well as create a new future. This ownership group seems mired in indecision and inability to execute.for whatever reason. Chapter 11 could wipe out all the old contracts which are inhibiting the future.

[Schllc]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

But I think its naive to blame the FAA for this

I understand your point, but the g1000 to the g1000 nxi should not need the extensive kinds of tests. Its more like a changeout of a 430 to a 430 waas and to invoke this onerous approval process on it is unnecessary and foolish. 
this isn’t a clean sheet design that’s unproven. 
it is actually coming on the exact same airframe already!  

[BlueDun]

I agree. The link of modern avionics (computers) and all the innovation they bring on a continual basis makes no sense to be connected to the certification. Certification exists for safety and related purposes. The "rules", such as they are, now cut against that purpose.  It seems, and I hope I am wrong, that we live in an odd world where a certificated Mooney pre-G1000 can be upgraded to the latest tech without becoming experimental, but a more modern aircraft cannot. This makes no sense.

[Robert C.]

My understanding is that the G1000 equipment is on the M20 type certificate.

That makes it impossible to change installations of the G1000 on the basis of an STC. The type certificate needs to be amended. That in turn is something only Mooney can do, Garmin cannot.

Robert

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

My understanding is that the G1000 equipment is on the M20 type certificate.

That makes it impossible to change installations of the G1000 on the basis of an STC. The type certificate needs to be amended. That in turn is something only Mooney can do, Garmin cannot.

Robert

I thought the entire purpose of a Supplemental Type Certificate was to modify the Type Certificate.

[GeeBee]

5 hours ago, Robert C. said:

My understanding is that the G1000 equipment is on the M20 type certificate.

That makes it impossible to change installations of the G1000 on the basis of an STC. The type certificate needs to be amended. That in turn is something only Mooney can do, Garmin cannot.

Robert

Not true. Anyone with money and engineering can create an STC for any airplane with a TCDS. If Avidyne wanted to install their equipment, they could engineer up an STC to pull out G1000 and replace it with their equipment. There are contract restrictions between Garmin and Mooney with regard to the sale of Garmin equipment into G1000 aircraft, but quite frankly they could not be defended if challenged on anti-trust grounds.

If STCs were not possible based upon the TCDS, Rockets, Missiles, IO-390 and MT propeller equipped Mooneys could not exist.

[Fly Boomer]

On 12/14/2023 at 2:42 PM, Schllc said:

Its more like a changeout of a 430 to a 430 waas and to invoke this onerous approval process on it is unnecessary and foolish. 

The 430 isn’t integrated, and isn’t on the type cert.  It’s an accessory.

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

The 430 isn’t integrated, and isn’t on the type cert.  It’s an accessory.

I am aware of the difference. 
That wasn’t really my point…

the g1000nxi is certified in the m20 already with the ultra’s.  The upgrade would literally be less than a few hours to change the displays, and alter the software to reflect the differences. 
the point was that this upgrade is no more difficult than swapping a 430 for a 430w. 
The end result being airframe that cannot get the latest safety features which seems contrary to the mission. 
I believe they are making a simple process much more difficult than it needs to be. 

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Schllc said:

I am aware of the difference. 
That wasn’t really my point…
the g1000nxi is certified in the m20 already with the ultra’s.  The upgrade would literally be less than a few hours to change the displays, and alter the software to reflect the differences. 
the point was that this upgrade is no more difficult than swapping a 430 for a 430w. 
The end result being airframe that cannot get the latest safety features which seems contrary to the mission. 
I believe they are making a simple process much more difficult than it needs to be. 

I would have thought the same thing, except the most current Mooney TCDS (2018), lists the G1000 (legacy) on the type certificate for certain serial number M20M and M20R models and all M20TN models. It lists the G1000 NXi for all M20U (Ovation Ultra) and M20V (Acclaim Ultra).

The type certificate would need to be changed to put the NXi in the M20TN, M20R and M20M with legacy G1000 systems. That would require flight testing and FAA approval. (Or someone to do an STC, but then they would have to convince Garmin to sell the OEM equipment to do it. Garmin could get an STC, but has only pursued that avenue when the TC holder is no longer in business)

Bottom line Mooney is still in the best position to do so. As owners we should find a way to sit down across the table and win their trust to share with us what it will take to get it done. 
 

[kortopates]

…..
Bottom line Mooney is still in the best position to do so. As owners we should find a way to sit down across the table and win their trust to share with us what it will take to get it done. 
 

Well stated with the wisdom and knowledge of experience.
But i think the biggest challenge for Mooney stems from the not so distant past when we saw the same issue with the waas upgrades for the G1000’s. A handful of owners pressured and convinced Mooney, while they were still in production mode, to provide the retrofit engineering to upgrade earlier G1000’s to WAAS. But in the end very few owners took advantage of it when Mooney offered the kit and probably more were updated using salvage or used GIA63W’s obtained from sources other than Mooney without allowing Mooney to recoup on their engineering cost.
You have to wonder if you were Mooney why you would risk such a poor investment at a time when the factory is likely barely surviving. Seems they can’t really afford to be so altruistic at this time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Schllc]

What I was trying to say, is that this instance is not what the writers of a law written far closer to 100 years ago than to today were conceiving, and I highly doubt it was intended to apply to this circumstance. I cannot argue the verbiage of the law, but if the interpretation of the law suggests the ultra and legacy g1000 airframes are somehow different aircraft, it borders on silly.  
I understand the path for the modification very well, and don’t argue the order or supremacy.  This is truly a unique situation.
If one was trying to switch to an avidyne, or dynon panel, or some entirely different suite it would make sense.  
But to require flight testing as if there isn’t a wealth of documentation that would suffice is just incorrect.  The difference between the two units is infinitesimal. 
Logically this should be a plug and play and check the box conversion. 
But when the entire governing body of unelected bureaucracy’s subconscious  mission is to slowly grind small GA out of existence, there is no real incentive to look at things holistically or logically.   
One would be remiss to not remember that this is just a giant DMV.

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, 1980Mooney said:

Garmin isn’t going to sell anyone anything related to the G1000 or G1000NXi without Mooney’s consent. 

However an avionics shop could take off-the-shelf Garmin hardware like the G500Nxi and with enough resources get an STC approved that would replace legacy G1000 units.

Garmin has made some G1000 exceptions, bypassing the airframe manufacturer.    https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/9717

If Garmin saw enough incentive you can bet they would consider it or at least make it easy for Mooney to facilitate it. They have the resources, the flight testing, a track record getting FAA approvals. They are in the business of selling product, but they are also aware of how poorly the Mooney owners' response was to the WAAS upgrades.

In online webinars when the question comes up from Mooney owners about the NXI upgrade they keep telling the owners to express that interest to Mooney. Not enough owners have done that. There has been a lot of talk by a few but not much follow through in letting Mooney know that we as owners would put the money in escrow. Sadly I'd be surprised if ten people actually would follow through and do it if Mooney or Garmin did their part .

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Stop blaming the FAA

Who writes the rules?

PS. It’s rhetorical, no need to respond. 
My point has been made, sorry it was not evident to you. 
All the best in the new year. 

[GeeBee]

Two words. Internet Explorer. It did not play then, it won't play now. If there is litigation on restraint of trade, both Garmin and Mooney will lose especially if Mooney is making no moves to improve the product.

 

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

The “ rules” of Corporate Law and Intellectual Property Protection were originally proposed by James Madison and included in the Constitution.  Congress has the responsibility of writing and updating those “rules”. 

You seem to think that a company that possesses the intellectual property and trade secrets of another company which was gained via a prior development contract (in this case Garmin has Mooney’s aircraft engineering data that was contractually used in the original G1000 development application and subsequent NXi in the U and V ) can just go use it however they want without approval of the owner of the Intellectual Property (IP).

Corporate and IP lawyers call that “Theft”. 

Yes Garmin has all the foundation data and files from which they can create upgrades.  Yes Garmin will need to devote some employee time and money to make that happen, no matter how small the effort seems to you.  Yes Mooney, has to authorize Garmin to use Mooney’s IP to do the updates. And yes the two companies have to agree which company will pay for the work, what customers will be charged and how any revenues will be split between Garmin and Mooney.

You posted on the prior page that Garmin already gave you that answer - Mooney has to make a decision or go out of business  (liquidation of Mooney means that Garmin is no longer bound to its agreements with Mooney). Yet you don’t want to accept or you fail to understand their answer.

Sorry that was not evident to you.

All the best in the new year.

 

In spite of the fact that I have never said a single thing that contradicts your word salad, it’s obviously extremely important to you that you win this imaginary argument you keep trying to stoke. 
You are correct and everything I have said is completely wrong and I have been edified . 
 

 

[Pinecone]

One way around this would be for Mooney owners that want the upgrade to "sign up" with Mooney.  Once Mooney gets enough people on the list, those on the list PAY for the upgrade to fund Mooney doing the work.  If Mooney did it as an STC, then they could also sell it later to other owners that did not "sign up" for the initial project.

As an STC, this would limit others from just converting using used parts.