Opinions on a new panel layout

[ArrowBerry]

Can I get some input on this sketch layout of a new panel? What looks good? What doesn't? Are any items in places that they will likely not fit due to structure behind the panel?

We're looking at taking out the current ADF and DME, and adding the GFC 500 while improving and organizing the layout. 

Some notes, the digital VOR on the sketch is actually just an old analog standalone VOR head/reciever which is currently in the old panel (the panel builder didn't have a closer looking picture). This cannot be changed right now because we need a nav source to be IFR legal without a digital nav/com radio talking to the G5. In the future, I'd like to change out this instrument to the Garmin 275 EIS as it would fit in the same hole and eliminate everything on the righthand side--once a new nav/com capable radio is in the budget! 

The two smaller instruments on the right side are a volt meter and EGT. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by ArrowBerry

[DCarlton]

I made some similar pilot side drawings for my F a couple of years ago.  Will need to dredge those up and compare.  I have a few more lights than you do (5).  I was concerned that two G5s wouldn’t stack well if recessed.  Wondering if someone has done it.  Don’t like them surface mounted or too crowded with other instruments.  Thought it was interesting that you put the ignition below the VSI.  I didn’t try that layout.  Where’s your transponder?

[PeteMc]

48 minutes ago, ArrowBerry said:

This cannot be changed right now because we need a nav source to be IFR legal without a digital nav/com radio talking to the G5.

Are you sure about the G5 "requirement" to be IFR legal?  I find that highly unlikely and would guess that the GI275s could be installed and would give you a LOT more instrument than the G5.  

Especially if you went with the 275s, you might reconsider the extra Altimeter and Air Speed Indicator, you'd have THREE of them if you go with the 275s (and you'd have to get them ALL checked when it is time.

 

[Pinecone]

What GPS is that?

I would recommend a 650, preferably 650Xi.  Gives you nav, com, GPS, and a LOT of capabilities.  With the GFC500 and GTN-650Xi, you can also have Smart Glide.  Also VNAV.

I am not on the bandwagon of putting the autopilot controls at the top or near the top.  I know that airliners have them up there, but not sure the reasoning behind this.,

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, ArrowBerry said:

Can I get some input on this sketch layout of a new panel? What looks good? What doesn't? Are any items in places that they will likely not fit due to structure behind the panel?

We're looking at taking out the current ADF and DME, and adding the GFC 500 while improving and organizing the layout. 

Some notes, the digital VOR on the sketch is actually just an old analog standalone VOR head/reciever which is currently in the old panel (the panel builder didn't have a closer looking picture). This cannot be changed right now because we need a nav source to be IFR legal without a digital nav/com radio talking to the G5. In the future, I'd like to change out this instrument to the Garmin 275 EIS as it would fit in the same hole and eliminate everything on the righthand side--once a new nav/com capable radio is in the budget! 

The two smaller instruments on the right side are a volt meter and EGT. 

As long as you are buying one more G5 and one GI-275, why not sell the one G5 you have and buy a 2nd GI-275. You're retaining your steam gauges for backup anyway. You could keep the VSI below the altimeter. The GI-275s are TSO'd and will get more attention in future upgrades than the G5 that came from Team X (experimental) and was certified to less stringent standards.

Or put a GI-275 EIS there for engine management and get rid of everything in the right side of your panel.

The possibilities never end . . . by the time you do all that you aren't too far from going all in and putting a G3X on the left, then get rid of your steam (and vacuum pump) and keep the G5 for needed backup.

Or you could . . . . . . . .  it never ends . . lol

[Greg Ellis]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

As long as you are buying one more G5 and one GI-275, why not sell the one G5 you have and buy a 2nd GI-275. You're retaining your steam gauges for backup anyway. You could keep the VSI below the altimeter. The GI-275s are TSO'd and will get more attention in future upgrades than the G5 that came from Team X (experimental) and was certified to less stringent standards.

Or put a GI-275 EIS there for engine management and get rid of everything in the right side of your panel.

The possibilities never end . . . by the time you do all that you aren't too far from going all in and putting a G3X on the left, then get rid of your steam (and vacuum pump) and keep the G5 for needed backup.

Or you could . . . . . . . .  it never ends . . lol

In the photo of his panel, he has 2 G5's.  One in the center as his Attitude Indicator and another which is just left of the radio stack.

[Mooney in Oz]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I am not on the bandwagon of putting the autopilot controls at the top or near the top.  I know that airliners have them up there, but not sure the reasoning behind this.

Ergonomics.

[ArtVandelay]

Ergonomics.

As long as the AP (and GPS, radios) are within easy reach of your right hand I don’t see any advantage to have them high or low.

[Ragsf15e]

@ArrowBerry

He’s already got the G5s and the gps, otherwise-275s be good, but with his plan of removing the adfs and reorganization, he’s looking pretty good!  

He’s also correct about the g5s not being able to display the vor/ils from his #2 radio since they are not digital and it’s already connected to his gps (1 source limit if second source isn’t digital, and must have gfc500).

1.  Where’s the transponder?

2. I have 2 g5s stacked but they aren’t flush and they are slightly right of the yoke center.  You don’t notice that when flying.  Fit might be tough flush and center.

3. I suspect (but don’t know) that it’s going to be really tough to fit those 5 items in the middle stack.  Id highly recommend measuring very carefully.  

4. A used sl30 might solve a couple problems. It is a slimmer radio and it’s digital, so you could connect it to your g5 HSI and get rid of the vor obs. It might also fit better as radio 1.  You could then keep 1 of your old radios as a spare.

good luck!

[hammdo]

I will say there is a VLOC switch that will work with G5 - Chief Aircraft made one for me but I decided to keep the systems independent. May be something to consider…

My panels is like this - with ‘maybe’ room for the autopilot…

 

-Don

[ArrowBerry]

20 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I made some similar pilot side drawings for my F a couple of years ago.  Will need to dredge those up and compare.  I have a few more lights than you do (5).  I was concerned that two G5s wouldn’t stack well if recessed.  Wondering if someone has done it.  Don’t like them surface mounted or too crowded with other instruments.  Thought it was interesting that you put the ignition below the VSI.  I didn’t try that layout.  Where’s your transponder?

The transponder is in the GNX375, the GPS in the centre stack. Honestly the only reason we considered the ignition on the bottom is because it's on top right now, and the key chain always hangs in front of the VSI... not really a big deal I guess? If the positions were reversible, the key chain would hang lower down out of the way. Or just ditch that and have a single key works too!

[ArrowBerry]

19 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Are you sure about the G5 "requirement" to be IFR legal?  I find that highly unlikely and would guess that the GI275s could be installed and would give you a LOT more instrument than the G5.  

Especially if you went with the 275s, you might reconsider the extra Altimeter and Air Speed Indicator, you'd have THREE of them if you go with the 275s (and you'd have to get them ALL checked when it is time.

 

We need two nav sources. Either GPS/VOR, GPS/ADF, GPS/GPS... any combination of the two. That's a Canadian thing, maybe the rules are different. Its not specifically related to the G5, it would be the same with the 275.

If we removed the antique ADF we need to keep the VOR... or add a second GPS. One day I think I'd like to have something like a Garmin 225 nav/com, which can give a digital nav source to have green needles on the G5. Come to think of it though, it feels like there's practically no operational VORs in Canada anymore anyways so maybe that's just a waste of money. Just to do an ILS? I don't know if any airport nearby that has an ILS without also an LPV to nearly the same minimums. 

[ArrowBerry]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

@ArrowBerry

He’s already got the G5s and the gps, otherwise-275s be good, but with his plan of removing the adfs and reorganization, he’s looking pretty good!  

He’s also correct about the g5s not being able to display the vor/ils from his #2 radio since they are not digital and it’s already connected to his gps (1 source limit if second source isn’t digital, and must have gfc500).

1.  Where’s the transponder?

2. I have 2 g5s stacked but they aren’t flush and they are slightly right of the yoke center.  You don’t notice that when flying.  Fit might be tough flush and center.

3. I suspect (but don’t know) that it’s going to be really tough to fit those 5 items in the middle stack.  Id highly recommend measuring very carefully.  

4. A used sl30 might solve a couple problems. It is a slimmer radio and it’s digital, so you could connect it to your g5 HSI and get rid of the vor obs. It might also fit better as radio 1.  You could then keep 1 of your old radios as a spare.

good luck!

1) GNX375

2) That's really good to know, I see a lot of different panels which have the G5s either slightly left or right of centre and I've always wondered how noticeable it is.

3) The radios in the picture are not exact representations of what we have in the plane, best we could find in that builder. But definitely as actual units get finalized we'll be measuring that out.

4) I'd really love an SL30, I have the SL40 in a different plane that's VFR only and it's great. They are worth a lot on the used market though. Maybe something to consider once the "ouch" of the autopilot bill fades.

Another big consideration for us is what we want to add in the future, without cutting a new panel again in 2-3 years. But it's really hard to decide how to cut a panel within a budget, while also thinking what you want to put in that spot later! I guess that's the real challenge for everyone. I really like the 275 EIS in the future because it will fit into existing space. The PAR200B audio panel from PS Engineering also looks great by combining two units and relieving space issues in the centre stack. 

Regarding the AP on top of the stack, I also fly King Airs as a day job that have been retrofitted with the G1000 and all of them have their AP on top. I guess it's what I'm used to. The older, steam gauge planes had their AP down in between the seats on a pedestal and you always have to look down to change a setting. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by ArrowBerry

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, ArrowBerry said:

1) GNX375

2) That's really good to know, I see a lot of different panels which have the G5s either slightly left or right of centre and I've always wondered how noticeable it is.

3) The radios in the picture are not exact representations of what we have in the plane, best we could find in that builder. But definitely as actual units get finalized we'll be measuring that out.

4) I'd really love an SL30, I have the SL40 in a different plane that's VFR only and it's great. They are worth a lot on the used market though. Maybe something to consider once the "ouch" of the autopilot bill fades.

Another big consideration for us is what we want to add in the future, without cutting a new panel again in 2-3 years. But it's really hard to decide how to cut a panel within a budget, while also thinking what you want to put in that spot later! I guess that's the real challenge for everyone. I really like the 275 EIS in the future because it will fit into existing space. The PAR200B audio panel from PS Engineering also looks great by combining two units and relieving space issues in the centre stack. 

Regarding the AP on top of the stack, I also fly King Airs as a day job that have been retrofitted with the G1000 and all of them have their AP on top. I guess it's what I'm used to. The older, steam gauge planes had their AP down in between the seats on a pedestal and you always have to look down to change a setting. 

sorry it’s at night, so harder to see how everything fits.  I liked your key, master and autopilot positions!

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, ArrowBerry said:

We need two nav sources. Either GPS/VOR, GPS/ADF, GPS/GPS... any combination of the two. That's a Canadian thing, maybe the rules are different. Its not specifically related to the G5, it would be the same with the 275.

That makes more sense.  I didn't think there was any situation that a G5 was required. 

As for the combinations, I'm all for GPS/NAV so that you have the option of of an ILS or LOC approach if there are issues with GPS.  As for the G5 vs 275s, I think if you could swing it, you'd be much happier with the 275s long term.  But totally get that you need to do what the budget allows for.

[ArrowBerry]

11 hours ago, PeteMc said:

That makes more sense.  I didn't think there was any situation that a G5 was required. 

As for the combinations, I'm all for GPS/NAV so that you have the option of of an ILS or LOC approach if there are issues with GPS.  As for the G5 vs 275s, I think if you could swing it, you'd be much happier with the 275s long term.  But totally get that you need to do what the budget allows for.

If I were adding both some scratch I'd agree with you about having the 275 instead. We bought the plane with one G5 already installed, and added the second when our vacuum pump failed two years ago. 

[Pinecone]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:41 AM, Mooney in Oz said:

Ergonomics.

Exactly how is is more ergonomic to lift your hand and arm up to shoulder height versus moving it slightly from the power controls or lap to the A/P controls?

[Mooney in Oz]

23 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Exactly how is is more ergonomic to lift your hand and arm up to shoulder height versus moving it slightly from the power controls or lap to the A/P controls?

You're making it sound as though it is some type of effort to 'lift your hand and arm up to shoulder height', similar to hanging out the washing. It is a simple, eye level selection of buttons that I find having the MSP up top to be more ergonomic than to make the selections in a lower position.

I've operated multiple aircraft with the MSP located at the top and lower panel levels, including my own Mooney. My preference is the top level as the MSP is at eye level and I therefore do not have to have eyes down to make selections. I find I'm less likely to press the wrong button when I'm looking direct and level at the selections. There is a reason why Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier and ATR also have their autopilot MSPs at top level.

I am not saying this should be everyone's preference. You asked the question and I provided my opinion. The OP has already indicated he is used to flying the work aircraft with the MSP up top.

If you prefer the MSP down low next to your power controls then that is fine. There is no right or wrong, just personal ergonomic preference.

 

[Pinecone]

Thanks.  Many people say something is ergonomic, when it is not.  And lifting your hand and arm is not really ergonomic from a movement perspective, but may be from a visual perspective.

I am about to do an avionics upgrade, so will consider this.  My controller will not fit in the stack, so can only go so high before interfering with gear switch.

[Pinecone]

FYI, about the G-5s not being centered on the yoke, for me, in my airplane, my body is not centered on the yoke.  I would prefer the instruments centered on ME.

[ArtVandelay]

I thought a lot about ergonomics, no matter what you’re going to have avionics well below eye level.


1. Got rid of the post mounted compass.
2. Put rarely interacted with avionics to right stack (JPI & Xpndr)
3. Shifted G3X to the right, because I always use split mode, this puts the AI centered on the yoke, puts the knobs/buttons on the right side. Left hand flys, right hand operates avionics. The left hand buttons I rarely use because they are duplicated elsewhere (DirectTo done on the GTN, heading on the GFC, etc).
Other than operating the lights and setting the baro (done with G5), the right hand can do the rest. No awkward reaching over the yoke, no leaning over, minimal head movements.

[ArtVandelay]

FYI, about the G-5s not being centered on the yoke, for me, in my airplane, my body is not centered on the yoke.  I would prefer the instruments centered on ME.

The problem with that is the next owner/Pilot probably will NOT have your seating position.
Whether you are upgrading the avionics or repainting your plane, I would give some consideration to what the future buyers will think.
Im reminded of a J that was repainted by an Alabama football fan; red, roll tide lettering and the mascot…..eliminating anyone other than a Alabama fan.

[ArrowBerry]

What does the group think about this? Sometimes I think that it's silly to use valuable space on the left side to place "primary" instruments which are covered by the G5. When we fly in reality our scan is focused on the glass. I've seen a couple panels on here which have moved some of those redundant instruments to the right side.

Recently we returned home from a 10 day trip flying to/from, and within Florida. Mostly VFR, but some IFR legs. The high density airspace really highlighted the need to have the iPad in a more convenient location than on your lap. I know yoke and window mounts are an option. However, why not right in front of you?

You can mostly ignore the centre stack, that doesn't affect the left and right sides and its still undecided for us!

 

[Vance Harral]

I would not fly instrument approaches in an airplane whose only certified altimeter was on the far opposite side of the panel from the attitude indicator.  I don't buy the argument that "The G5 altimeter is good enough even though it's not certified primary", for approaches down to 200' AGL minimums.  I've flown in too many airplanes with G5s where a combination of owner ignorance and shop confusion over what the owner wants, lead to uncorrected G5 installations with indicated altitudes which are over 100' in error in the "dangerous" direction.

[EricJ]

I've had two G5s for quite a while, and I would not move the altimeter away like that.   I wouldn't move the rate of climb, either, but that's not quite as important.    Having the air instruments in the expected scan is a good thing, especially if you have to fly home with everything shut off due to electrical issues (BTDT).

Even with GI-275s I wouldn't leave space blank where traditional air instruments could be. 

Flying a larger display, like a G1000 or G3x or something, is a bit different as the display area is more spread out.   It makes a difference.