M20D wing damage

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, SheryLoewen said:

Using a skin from another wing is not a option. A new skin from Mooney would be less than $500 Plus shipping. (lucky it did not involve the fuel tank) Replacing the skin would be the best repair.  It's a matter of drilling out a lot of rivets and riveting. 

Paul Loewen

 

9 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

15K is not out of line for a shop of Beegle's quality and the amount of work needed.

John Breda

 

8 hours ago, ptwffz said:

They must use some high quality bubble gum and rappers. 

As Paul and John said it is all basically labor.  Watch the video below.  They show just part of the repair after they have already removed flight control surfaces, (in your case the flap) and removed the damaged area as well as repaired any damaged ribs.  Your damage is further inboard and the skin is larger.   I can see 80 shop hours - maybe more - at $120/hour plus parts and painting.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[ptwffz]

50 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

As Paul and John said it is all basically labor.  Watch the video below.  They show just part of the repair after they have already removed flight control surfaces, (in your case the flap) and removed the damaged area as well as repaired any damaged ribs.  Your damage is further inboard and the skin is larger.   I can see 80 shop hours - maybe more - at $120/hour plus parts and painting.

 

 

 

Thanks for the video. Gives me a peek into the wing. 

[M20F-1968]

19 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

As Paul and John said it is all basically labor.  Watch the video below.  They show just part of the repair after they have already removed flight control surfaces, (in your case the flap) and removed the damaged area as well as repaired any damaged ribs.  Your damage is further inboard and the skin is larger.   I can see 80 shop hours - maybe more - at $120/hour plus parts and painting.

 

 

 

And...changing the wingtip skin as shown in this video is probably the easiest skin to change on a Mooney.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

Also, the second wing skin from the fuselage on the older Mooneys has a small area of about

2" X 2" where the metal is stretched to make room the the skin underneath it.  This area is near the leading edge, inboard edge, and is not found on the newer wings.  Thus, you may need to alter a skin obtained from the factory by hand-working the metal, or you may find that the exact skin is not available.  Be sure to check this out with the factory before they mail you a skin.  Send them detailed pictures of the entire skin you will be replacing.

John Breda

[ptwffz]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:59 PM, M20F-1968 said:

Also, the second wing skin from the fuselage on the older Mooneys has a small area of about

2" X 2" where the metal is stretched to make room the the skin underneath it.  This area is near the leading edge, inboard edge, and is not found on the newer wings.  Thus, you may need to alter a skin obtained from the factory by hand-working the metal, or you may find that the exact skin is not available.  Be sure to check this out with the factory before they mail you a skin.  Send them detailed pictures of the entire skin you will be replacing.

John Breda

Thanks for the info John. 

[ptwffz]

Not to keep this thread alive but I was able to get some inside photos of the damaged leading edge. It may not make a difference with the photos but my main concern is the strip of metal closet to the leading edge damage. Wondering how "structural" that part is. Looks like it missed the rib. See photos. 

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

Not to keep this thread alive but I was able to get some inside photos of the damaged leading edge. It may not make a difference with the photos but my main concern is the strip of metal closet to the leading edge damage. Wondering how "structural" that part is. Looks like it missed the rib. See photos. 

Stringers are generally not structural, they just keep the airfoil (the wing skins) in the right shape as you move through the air.

[ptwffz]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Stringers are generally not structural, they just keep the airfoil (the wing skins) in the right shape as you move through the air.

Thanks Hank. I just saw an old youtube video of a mechanic using a molded block that fit inside the wing to press out a dent. I think it was of a Grumman Tiger wing. Interesting.

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

Thanks Hank. I just saw an old youtube video of a mechanic using a molded block that fit inside the wing to press out a dent. I think it was of a Grumman Tiger wing. Interesting.

There are a number of repair methods that may work that are much less intrusive than replacing the skin.   Whether the skin is still able to be reshaped sufficiently might be a question, but I'd think it's worth pursuing.

 

[ptwffz]

40 minutes ago, EricJ said:

There are a number of repair methods that may work that are much less intrusive than replacing the skin.   Whether the skin is still able to be reshaped sufficiently might be a question, but I'd think it's worth pursuing.

 

I'm certainly not trying to compromise safety but I'm all in if there's a less intrusive and expensive solution. Just wanted the input from you Mooney guys.

[KSMooniac]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Stringers are generally not structural, they just keep the airfoil (the wing skins) in the right shape as you move through the air.

Stringers are very much structural!  

I think a skin replacement is your best bet here.  The skins are available, the repair is not difficult, just a decent chunk of skilled labor.

I think your plane could use a Corrosion X or similar treatment at your favorite Mooney Spa too.

[ptwffz]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Stringers are very much structural!  

I think a skin replacement is your best bet here.  The skins are available, the repair is not difficult, just a decent chunk of skilled labor.

I think your plane could use a Corrosion X or similar treatment at your favorite Mooney Spa too.

Was gonna ask about Corrosion. Is that what the white patchy stuff is on the skin?

[KSMooniac]

43 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

Was gonna ask about Corrosion. Is that what the white patchy stuff is on the skin?

Yes, and on the stringers as well.  You might want to check out the spar, especially in the center section/wheel wells and look for any major corrosion before going much further.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Stringers are very much structural!  

I think a skin replacement is your best bet here.  The skins are available, the repair is not difficult, just a decent chunk of skilled labor.

I think your plane could use a Corrosion X or similar treatment at your favorite Mooney Spa too.

There is structural and structural.

Obviously Stringers are structural, they are the structure that holds the skin. And they stop the skin deforming when the skin is a structural component.

However, as far out as that dent is, its value is much less and someone who is more of an engineer than me could well say its fine.

Also, with the nil damage to the rib, its possible that it can be simply pulled, panel beaten and filled.

I have repaired a similar dent in an ultralight and just cut out the section and pop riveted in a doubler and a patch. All in accordance with the FAA guide and that was way closer to the fuselage.

With the low level of damage, I would personally be comfortable ferrying it and would not object to a patching solution if a mechanic agreed to sign it off.

Obviously the new skin would be nicer and would have better resale, but you could also be opening a can of worms.

Plus one to giving it a good corrosion treatment. Also, learn the high risk spots and keep applying it. I do my wheel wells with acf 50 normally whenever I do an oil change. And whenever I feel like it. And do the hinge bolts and links and whatever looks like it would be happier when sprayed. 

[ptwffz]

40 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Yes, and on the stringers as well.  You might want to check out the spar, especially in the center section/wheel wells and look for any major corrosion before going much further.

Center spar is good. It's been inspected.

[ptwffz]

21 minutes ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

There is structural and structural.

Obviously Stringers are structural, they are the structure that holds the skin. And they stop the skin deforming when the skin is a structural component.

However, as far out as that dent is, its value is much less and someone who is more of an engineer than me could well say its fine.

Also, with the nil damage to the rib, its possible that it can be simply pulled, panel beaten and filled.

I have repaired a similar dent in an ultralight and just cut out the section and pop riveted in a doubler and a patch. All in accordance with the FAA guide and that was way closer to the fuselage.

With the low level of damage, I would personally be comfortable ferrying it and would not object to a patching solution if a mechanic agreed to sign it off.

Obviously the new skin would be nicer and would have better resale, but you could also be opening a can of worms.

Plus one to giving it a good corrosion treatment. Also, learn the high risk spots and keep applying it. I do my wheel wells with acf 50 normally whenever I do an oil change. And whenever I feel like it. And do the hinge bolts and links and whatever looks like it would be happier when sprayed. 

I just spoke to a repair facility in the Phoenix area and he said just that. A doubler and a patch. He saw the photos and said it's a safe option unless I care about the looks.

[McMooney]

aluminum + torch, just sayin.  aluminum has a habit of returning to it's shape

[ptwffz]

2 hours ago, McMooney said:

aluminum + torch, just sayin.  aluminum has a habit of returning to it's shape

Hummmmm. Very interesting. 

[McMooney]

9 hours ago, McMooney said:

aluminum + torch, just sayin.  aluminum has a habit of returning to it's shape

Heat Gun, not torch. 

[KSMooniac]

Please do not do that on a heat-treated aircraft structural skin.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I was thinking more about a tool you make that is the shape of the airfoil with an extension to pound on, get that inside the wing and pound it back into shape.  That could make it flyable.  

[EricJ]

20 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I was thinking more about a tool you make that is the shape of the airfoil with an extension to pound on, get that inside the wing and pound it back into shape.  That could make it flyable.  

The modern techniques adhere rings to the outside and pull.   You can move the rings around where needed, and a common technique is to adhere many in a row, thread a rod through them, and pull them together.    This is done a lot in automotive repair.    My hangar neighbor did this to reshape the tip tank on his Comanche after a bird strike mangled it, and it came out quite nicely.

[ptwffz]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

The modern techniques adhere rings to the outside and pull.   You can move the rings around where needed, and a common technique is to adhere many in a row, thread a rod through them, and pull them together.    This is done a lot in automotive repair.    My hangar neighbor did this to reshape the tip tank on his Comanche after a bird strike mangled it, and it came out quite nicely.

Looks like there's many was to skin a cat as long as the structural integrity is not compromised. 

[KSMooniac]

4 hours ago, ptwffz said:

Looks like there's many was to skin a cat as long as the structural integrity is not compromised. 

You must have official coverage/approval for any repair to ensure that you do not compromise structural integrity.  Playing with heat, smacking it with a mallet, or pulling out dents likely do not have such coverage in the the aircraft world, so choose carefully.

[ptwffz]

8 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

You must have official coverage/approval for any repair to ensure that you do not compromise structural integrity.  Playing with heat, smacking it with a mallet, or pulling out dents likely do not have such coverage in the the aircraft world, so choose carefully.

I would never do it myself. Whatever the fix, it would be legal.