Advice welcome - Avionics upgrade

[blaine beaven]

Hello everyone, 

I know how much we all love to spend each other's money. I am in the process of quoting out an avionics upgrade to my 1978 M20J. 

I believe I have settled on what I want, but if I am missing something I would appreciate the heads up from the knowledge base here. 

My current avionics are 1980’s vintage:

• 1x Narco audio panel
• 2x Narco coms
• 1x Narco Nav with ILS
• 1x Narco transponder
• 1x Narco NAV 121 VOR receiver and indicator unit
• Century III Autopilot (inop) with glideslope and altitude hold
• Original engine, fuel, amp gauges
• Vacuum driven AH and DG

For the last few years I have been using a yoke mount iPad Mini with Foreflight as my main navigation info source

I am planning on installing the following:

• JPI EDM 830 (I want to retain original gauges to provide me with redundancy) 
• Dual G5s with GAD 13 (to give OAT/TAS/DA)
• PAR 200B (will give me Bluetooth and a COMM)
• GNC 355 (IFR GPS with a COMM)
• GSB 15 USB type A & C charging ports – 1 for panel and 1 for rear seats

I intend to keep the following

• Narco NAV 121 VOR receivier and indicator unit (will be my backup for the GNC 355 for IFR certification)

I currently have a GTX 327 and tray that was working when removed that the shop is willing to install. 

I want the aircraft to be IFR capable, and the intention is to get my IFR rating on a sim/rental while my plane is getting surgery or after and on my own plane. 

I am in Canada so I am not too worried about ADS-B at present as it seems unlikely we will have a decent system, or mandate, here in the near future. 

Is there anything that I am missing? Are there efficiencies/savings to be had? I have tried to get my avionics shop (the only one in town) to provide me with advice but they are very busy and I think they will just install what I tell them to. 

Somethings I am wondering about:

• If the EDM 830 has an OAT sensor, do I need the GAD 13 for the G5s? (my minimal research suggests yes...) 
• Is it worth having an interface between the GNC 355 and the EDM 830 for fuel to destination? I am not sure how big of a job that connection is or what the cost of parts will be
• I am thinking of putting in either a QuadLock iPad mount on the passenger side of the panel (I expect to have some space - or is an AirGizmos or similar a better choice? this is to keep running foreflight and also let my passengers watch some TV while flying

Thanks in advance!

Blaine

[Joshua Blackh4t]

Not a panel expert since mine is pretty basic, but ADSB is awesome.

I was lucky enough to find a 2nd hand GDL39 that input ADSB to my Aera. I didn't think I'd need it much, but so often I can "see" aircraft in the circuit and know what to look for. Even the callsigns are there to make it easy to contact them.

When calling traffic control, they already know where you are even in G airspace. 

So I'd advise you to add ADSB in and out of some form. 

Have fun

[Z W]

Sounds like a very cost-effective plan.  Love the GNC355's capability for the price.

I would look hard at repairing the autopilot while you're in there, or biting the bullet and installing a GFC500.  A functioning autopilot is really a safety requirement for single-pilot IFR.  You want it connected to the 355 for GPS/LPV approaches with glideslope.

Instead of an EDM 830, why not a Garmin GI275 set up for EIS?  Everything else you're installing is Garmin and I'm sure it connects nicely to the 355.

I'm sure you've also considered the GI275 instead of G5's for your attitude indicator and HSI.  If not, you should.  As far as I know, the GI275 is pretty much an updated replacement for the G5 in almost all installations at this point.  Note - I have a G5 and it's a great little unit, but it was installed in 2019, before the GI275 was around.

I second the comment that ADSB is great and worth installing via a GTX345 or similar, but I guess if you don't have it in Canada, maybe that's money wasted.

[Sue Bon]

I would recommend ADSB - at least out.

If you're going to be flying IFR, I would very strongly recommend to upgrade your Century Autopilot to a GFC500. If you're going to be doing major surgery anyway, that would be my number one priority.

I got the EDM 730 and am happy with it. I also have two G5s, which are awesome. 

[Pinecone]

I would go JPI 900 and drop the stock guages.  Once you have the JPI, you will not be looking at the stock gauges much, if any.   I currently have an 830 and that is what I check.  GI275 would also work.  Consider the Ceis fuel senders for accurate fuel quantity measurement.

I would serious look into trying to stretch to a GNS-650Xi.  SO MUCH capability in it

And I agree with the others, that ADSB is a very good thing.

[LANCECASPER]

I understand your desire to have redundancy in your engine instruments, but since the JPI830 is advisory only, if you lose a certified instrument it's a no-go anyway.

Even if both are functioning and you see differences between the ship's gauges and the JPI830 you have to rely on the older unreliable ship's gauges since they are the certified gauges. I would spend the difference and get a certified primary (JPI 900 or 930, EI MVP50 or their round option, Garmin GI-275 EIS) and lose the ship's gauges.

[philiplane]

Fixing the autopilot would be at the top of my list for IFR flying. The Century III is not complicated to diagnose, nor is it expensive to repair. And it can fly GPS approaches very nicely. You will either need to retain the existing attitude indicator to drive it, or switch to a GI-275. The G5 cannot drive it.

[PMcClure]

Personally, I would focus on the autopilot as the priority. I don't know the Century III at all, but can tell you that changing over from KFC200 to the GFC 500 was worth it and probably cost efficient given the cost to rebuild the old King servos. Without an autopilot, I wouldn't consider the plane IFR ready. So I suggest you plan that first and then prioritize the rest of your money. Replacing the vacuum driven AH/DG would be my next priority. In 17 years of flying, I have had more than 6 failures with vacuum system or related parts/instruments probably the same number of A/P servo failures plus a couple of A/P computer failures. A few of these failures in IMC. So far,  the Garmin set-up (A/P and AHRS) have been rock solid except that Garmin has replaced the servos in my plane 2 times each under warranty without me asking. 

[blaine beaven]

Thanks everyone for the advice. 

I am investigating what my autopilot options are. I am not interested in keeping my vacuum system, and the price difference to put a Gi275 v G5, plus repair a 40 year old autopilot that I do not know what is the problem, is all pushing me towards a new autopilot install. 

The price difference between the 830 and 900, for what does not appear to be added value in features that are important to me, means I will likely stick with the 830. I do appreciate that my thoughts on "redundancy" are not exactly correct because I am still only able to dispatch on the factory indicators. 

On the actual IFR instruments though - I am not an IFR pilot (yet), but will I be able to fly this IFR with using a VOR (no ILS, no DME) as my backup to the Gnc355? In Canada at least most airports are not repairing VORs because everyone is going to GPS. Here are the regulations I have to comply with: 

• (j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

  • (i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

  • (ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

 

Thanks for your input!

[vik]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:11 PM, blaine beaven said:

Is it worth having an interface between the GNC 355 and the EDM 830 for fuel to destination? I am not sure how big of a job that connection is or what the cost of parts will be

Absolutely! You will be very happy to know how much fuel you are left with at the destination in hour and minutes! It is only three extra wires to connect! GNC355 will talk to EDM830 with no problems!

If you are interested, I have MVP-50P sitting on the shelf with all sensors and wiring configured for IO-360 engine. You will be able to remove your old mechanical gauges and the price difference will be much less than 830 installation costs.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, vik said:

Absolutely! You will be very happy to know how much fuel you are left with at the destination in hour and minutes! It is only three extra wires to connect! GNC355 will talk to EDM830 with no problems!

Mike Busch says this is how he sets his fuel flow.  He keeps pinching the fuel down until the calculated fuel remaining at destination is at or above a number he is comfortable with.  If he gets so far LOP that his engines are in danger of crapping out, he starts planning a fuel stop.  He has two fuel flows that he uses over and over:  regular LOP and WAY LOP.

[blaine beaven]

7 hours ago, vik said:

Absolutely! You will be very happy to know how much fuel you are left with at the destination in hour and minutes! It is only three extra wires to connect! GNC355 will talk to EDM830 with no problems!

If you are interested, I have MVP-50P sitting on the shelf with all sensors and wiring configured for IO-360 engine. You will be able to remove your old mechanical gauges and the price difference will be much less than 830 installation costs.

Unfortunately, I have already paid for the 830 and it’s arrived with all of my parameters programmed. Plus the avionics shop here that is doing all the other work is not keen on installing product they don’t sell. But thank you for the offer. 
 

I will make sure the 355 and 830 have a connection. 

[Pinecone]

You should be able to sell a new, never isntalled 830 for most of the cost.

The 900 and getting rid of the legacy instruments, frees up a lot of panel space.

The GPS connection to the JPI is FANTASTIC.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I have a 355 and an 830 that are linked up.  The fuel planning functions are very nice.  I’d strongly suggest CIES senders and a digital fuel gauge of some sort. I personally used the aerospace logic gauge.  Having accurate fuel information increases the utility of the airplane.  
 

If I had it to do over I would have gotten a GI 275 primary EIS.  Getting rid of old primary senders and gauges is a plus to me.  
 

I have two GI275s AI and HSI, they are worth the extra cost in my opinion.  Very nice.  
 

If you go with the GI275s I would stick with the current autopilot which is compatible and see if that is repairable.  

[FlybyNite]

The JPI 900 and 930 has more items that is displayed plus it can also be a fuel Guage. I'm ditching my 830 for a 930 just because my fuel senders and gauges are none reliable anymore. You can still keep your original gauges for redundency with a 900/930. I bought my plane with the 830 already installed and I was annoyed that the previous guy didn't spend the extra for the 900/930.

[blaine beaven]

Hi everyone,

So an update on my project. The advice you have all given me so far has been really helpful  

- I’ve decided to get rid of the old Narco 121; it’s taking up left side panel space I don’t really have.

- I’m likely going to do the EDM 900 and get rid of all the original engine instruments, just sorting out the price difference from the 830 I bought and has arrived. It looks like my shop will sell the 830 for me.

-I am installing a GFC 500 with pitch trim

So the question now is what do I do for my second IFR nav source? I see my options as:

-GNX 255, which will give me VOR/ILS on the G5; if I do this I won’t do the PS Eng audio panel with radio, because I don’t need 3 radios. I’ll do a GMA 345 with Bluetooth instead. 

or

-GPS 175, which will give me GPS navigation to the G5; in this case I keep the PAR200B to give me two comms (the audio panel and the GNC355)

Any other ideas I might be missing here? I’m not sure the odds of a gps unit failure that would require me to rely on a secondary, so is it worth it spending the money on a second GPS? 
 

Thanks everyone!

[Z W]

I wouldn't want to be without an IFR radio nav.  Sometimes there are widespread GPS outages.

I also wouldn't want to rely on a single GPS navigator.  If the unit fails, you're flying VOR's, or relying on a phone / tablet.

I would seriously consider installing a GTN650 which will be an IFR GPS and also a nav / com.  It will also pair with your GFC500 and give you the ability to use VNAV and install a "Smart Glide" button as well.  It will be a little more money, but for what you're already spending, a minor cost for a pretty serious increase in capability.

[Pinecone]

I second the GTN-650 recommendation.

[blaine beaven]

Given the considerable price difference, lack of ADSB benefits in the part of Canada I live and fly in, I’m not sure that a 650 makes sense for me 

[vorlon1]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:07 AM, philiplane said:

Fixing the autopilot would be at the top of my list for IFR flying. The Century III is not complicated to diagnose, nor is it expensive to repair. And it can fly GPS approaches very nicely. You will either need to retain the existing attitude indicator to drive it, or switch to a GI-275. The G5 cannot drive it.

Google this. Disproven in .32 seconds.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, vorlon1 said:

Google this. Disproven in .32 seconds.

I personally would believe someone who has worked on Mooneys and GA airplanes for years over what google tells you in .32 seconds.

What part of his statement isn’t true? The G5 attitude indicator can’t drive the CIII autopilot. The GI-275 can. And many people that work on older autopilots liked the simplicity of the CIII since there are still many of them functioning properly today, decades later.

[philiplane]

1 hour ago, vorlon1 said:

Google this. Disproven in .32 seconds.

Please elaborate. I didn't know that Google has the knowledge and technical skills to address this topic. I should hire it. What FAA certificates does it hold?

I work on many planes with Century III autopilots, including my own, that fly any GPS approach well, right down to the runway. Some are driven by the GI-275, some by the original AI, and mine is driven by an Aspen/EA100 combination. 

I've also helped people fix installation and performance problems on the magical new GFC500 and STEC 3100 autopilots. Who so far are having far too many problems. Some are regretting the decisions, when they could have fixed their existing autopilot for far less.

Edited November 18, 2023 by philiplane

[dkkim73]

@blaine beaven 

How far north of the border do you live, and do you plan to fly to the states? It might speak to your assessment of ADS-B utility ("out" being required in a number of situations, and "in" being nice to have, though you can recover some of that utility with a separate receiver and ForeFlight). 

So also if you were to (blasphemy warning) ever consider selling the aircraft; a flyer closer to the border (or on this side) might value the install more.

There are hypotheticals, but worth thinking about since: 1. you'll have everything open anyhow, and 2. you are already thoughtfully considering the synergies between equipment. 

Meta-observation: We are all upselling you, but isn't it fun? You knew this was going to happen. 

[blaine beaven]

8 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

@blaine beaven 

How far north of the border do you live, and do you plan to fly to the states? It might speak to your assessment of ADS-B utility ("out" being required in a number of situations, and "in" being nice to have, though you can recover some of that utility with a separate receiver and ForeFlight). 

So also if you were to (blasphemy warning) ever consider selling the aircraft; a flyer closer to the border (or on this side) might value the install more.

There are hypotheticals, but worth thinking about since: 1. you'll have everything open anyhow, and 2. you are already thoughtfully considering the synergies between equipment. 

Meta-observation: We are all upselling you, but isn't it fun? You knew this was going to happen. 

Haha yes, I always appreciate that we spend another’s money faster than we spend our own…

 

I live about 200nm north of North Dakota. From others that have done the ADSB install, I’ve been told they receive nothing here, and it’s only significantly further south that they do. 
 

Although Canada has a pending ADSB mandate (that continues to shift further away all the time), our main provider is going with a space based system, as opposed to ground based. 
 

Most of my flying is north of where I live, where there are less weather reporting stations, so even XM Weather is of limited utility. 
 

This means that even if I were to install a system that will eventually be mandated here in Canada, it will not work in the US, unless I want to spend significant money to get a system that will do both.
 

I do have plans to fly to the US again in the future. If necessary, I may install a GDL82 or something similar which will provide “out” to my GTX 327. I could always add a Sentry or something similar to my iPad/ForeFlight for “in”. I just can’t justify the big ticket price for what is a minimal benefit. 
 

But if anyone wants to let me know their thoughts on doing a GNX 255 v a GPS 175 for my second required IFR source, I’m all ears! 
 

Thanks,

[chriscalandro]

It’s likely too late now but for the money you’re spending I’m wondering if it’s worth looking at a g3x. 
 

for the price of the G5s and the JPI, plus the other stuff, I really don’t think you’re far enough off to at least consider it.