New to me E

[BloodRedSkies]

So I finally got my 1969 M20E. I have lots of Mooney time but this was my first experience in the short body all of mine has been mid body mostly the 'K'. I'm interested to hear what others find normal for specs & temps as I mostly only have a stock 231 to compare it to and that's a different animal. So for a list of it's mods and equipment to understand the beast. 

201 windshield, Lasar cowl closure mod, oil cooler relocation, horizontal stab and vertical stab mods, Aileron/flap gap seals, brake rotation, and Power Flow Exhaust. It has a McCauley 3 blade prop as well. 

Inside it has Dual G5s, GTN650/GNS430W, GTX327/GDL88, JPI700, STech30. 

I did 3 legs from Fresno to Minnesota. First two at 13K and the 3rd leg at 9K.

I noticed about 145-146kts tas at 13k and about 151-2kts tas at 9k feet. 18" @2400 at 13k and 21" @2400 at 9k. I leaned about 100 ROP got 9gph/13k and 10gph/9k. Hottest cht at 13 was about 315 and at 9K about 340.

Oil in cruise was about 190-200, but on climb out in SLC(103*@4200ft elv) it got almost to 240* and I really had to sacrifice climb to keep air coming in. 

So questions are ....Does this all seem normal for the 'E'? Any other mods tricks etc perimeters to keep it in? Can you run LOP stock? How much does the 3 blade affect cruise? 

It needs to be rerigged a little on the Aileron and rudders. Brakes need to be bled( has all new pads and rotors). I noticed the mechanical ASI kind of won't increase much after about 120mph, but the G5 IAS seems to be right on. 

 

[The Other Red Baron]

Normal temps to me in my 1965E.  Funny all these temperature posts are popping up.  I have to climb 120/mph in summer if not a bit slower.  We also have a 3 blade but it is all I've ever known on the Mooney so I'm not sure about cruise speed impact.

 

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edit: just noticed you seem to get the same oil temps with the oil cooler relocation mod as my stock 1965E with the oil cooler in the front.

Edited August 3, 2023 by The Other Red Baron

[BloodRedSkies]

49 minutes ago, The Other Red Baron said:

Normal temps to me in my 1965E.  Funny all these temperature posts are popping up.  I have to climb 120/mph in summer if not a bit slower.  We also have a 3 blade but it is all I've ever known on the Mooney so I'm not sure about cruise speed impact.

 

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edit: just noticed you seem to get the same oil temps with the oil cooler relocation mod as my stock 1965E with the oil cooler in the front.

Yeah that's was definitely one of the hottest and highest DA days I've ever flown in GA

[McMooney]

I have a 2 blade prop, original oil cooler, original windshield and the lasar cowl closure,  your numbers seem to match my birdy.

yes your E should run LOP nicely.  Probably won't even need to talk to gami

yes, you'll have to climb at something like 120mph to keep things cool when it's super hot maybe 110/115 .

did you use the ram air?, that'll give you about another inch mp at altitude.

 

she looks really nice, congrats.

tip, when in cruise at altitude, slide the seat back, things get really comfy

 

[BloodRedSkies]

8 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I have a 2 blade prop, original oil cooler, original windshield and the lasar cowl closure,  your numbers seem to match my birdy.

yes your E should run LOP nicely.  Probably won't even need to talk to gami

yes, you'll have to climb at something like 120mph to keep things cool when it's super hot maybe 110/115 .

did you use the ram air?, that'll give you about another inch mp at altitude.

 

she looks really nice, congrats.

tip, when in cruise at altitude, slide the seat back, things get really comfy

 

Yup used the ram air. It works as advertised. I forgot to close it until I put the gear down on the second leg. So my flow is close it TOD! 

[TheAv8r]

In my '65 E, from 7-9k, I get:

• 65% power - 142kts TAS at 20deg LOP around 8gph
• 75% power - 152-155kts TAS at 120deg ROP around 11gph

You do have a 3-bladed prop which will give you climb but sacrifice cruise, so that may be where the numbers are a tad slower. 

On climb, my oil temperatures will get a little hot (especially right now with Texas summers) but not redline, like 200-210deg. It runs around 190-200 in cruise.

[takair]

My numbers are similar to @TheAv8r including oil temp.  I don’t have speed mods or cowl closure.  2 blade Hartzell.

[Shadrach]

Numbers match what I would expect from my “box stock” 67F. Don’t split hairs over a few mph. All of my speed testing has been at WOT, ram air open, peak EGT and 2500rpm. Aircraft weight and DA at the test altitude is the primary factor. Test speeds vary by about 10kts depending on conditions. Tested top speed of my F has been as high as 156kts (cold winter day at 1500msl and as low as 144kts (hot summer day at 13500msl). I think that all of the 200 hp Mooneys fall in this range +/- 5 kts.

CHTs and Oil temp seem within normal range.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Shadrach

[FlyingDude]

5 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

In my '65 E, from 7-9k, I get:

• 65% power - 142kts TAS at 20deg LOP around 8gph
• 75% power - 152-155kts TAS at 120deg ROP around 11gph

You do have a 3-bladed prop which will give you climb but sacrifice cruise, so that may be where the numbers are a tad slower. 

On climb, my oil temperatures will get a little hot (especially right now with Texas summers) but not redline, like 200-210deg. It runs around 190-200 in cruise.

Hi, do you recall the total weight at those speeds?  

[TheAv8r]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

Hi, do you recall the total weight at those speeds?  

Likely somewhere around 2200-2300lbs. 

[BloodRedSkies]

40 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

Hi, do you recall the total weight at those speeds?  

I know for mine it was close to gross. 

[FlyingDude]

At 65%, 5000' altitude, I get a 7-8kts TAS spread between MTOW forward CG (full extended tanks and 2 adults in front seats) vs ~2150 mid CG (just me and 20gl in tanks).

10-13 kTAS spread between 65% LOP and 75% ROP...

Speed mods don't always add speed.  After a certain point, it doesn't get any faster but it burns less fuel.  Reversing the brake calipers saved me 0.3-0.5gph at 65%, but the speeds didn't change...  Piece of heaven for this CB...

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

At 65%, 5000' altitude, I get a 7-8kts TAS spread between MTOW forward CG (full extended tanks and 2 adults in front seats) vs ~2150 mid CG (just me and 20gl in tanks).

10-13 kTAS spread between 65% LOP and 75% ROP...

Speed mods don't always add speed.  After a certain point, it doesn't get any faster but it burns less fuel.  Reversing the brake calipers saved me 0.3-0.5gph at 65%, but the speeds didn't change...  Piece of heaven for this CB...

Can you post a pic of the caliper reversal?  I am trying to visualize the brake line routing.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, BloodRedSkies said:

I know for mine it was close to gross. 

 What's your empty weight?  Unless I have passengers, my take off weight is usually ~ 2200lbs.

[BloodRedSkies]

The other thing I have noticed(although it's been 16 years) is this airplane is way more pitch sensitive than the 231. The ALT hold on the autopilot only works good in really smooth air so I've been just using heading and leaving my hand on the trim. 

[BloodRedSkies]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 What's your empty weight?  Unless I have passengers, my take off weight is usually ~ 2200lbs.

About 1700. During the pre buy it was discovered their was no AFH/WB/EQL(separate from the POH in 69) So they did a W&B and actually weighed it. Low and behold when I was doing a document verification prior to closing I found the original AFM etc and the last WB that was 1630(based on add/subtract over the years) go figure. The previous owner was an older gentleman and his A&P/I&A died during the buying process so I was just thankful all the documentation was there. I'm going to try and figure out how it gained so much weight it has no vacuum system. 

I'm going to ditch the DME as it has 2 GPS, The AirSport system, and probably the P2 system. It scared the shit out of me on the first landing. It was like something from Spirit of Halloween jumped in my plane on final. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by BloodRedSkies

[McMooney]

what is the airport and p2 system

[Shadrach]

38 minutes ago, BloodRedSkies said:

About 1700. During the pre buy it was discovered their was no AFH/WB/EQL(separate from the POH in 69) So they did a W&B and actually weighed it. Low and behold when I was doing a document verification prior to closing I found the original AFM etc and the last WB that was 1630(based on add/subtract over the years) go figure. The previous owner was an older gentleman and his A&P/I&A died during the buying process so I was just thankful all the documentation was there. I'm going to try and figure out how it gained so much weight it has no vacuum system. 

I'm going to ditch the DME as it has 2 GPS, The Airport system, and probably the P2 system. It scared the shit out of me on the first landing. It was like something from Spirit of Halloween jumped in my plane on final. 

 

 

That’s pretty reasonable. My 67F weighs 1680lbs (according to W&B for which I have all revisions) but is not as well equipped as your bird. The delta in unequiped airframe weight between short an mid body is about 15lbs. One obvious area of gain is that the original prop your E was delivered with weighed 53.75lbs. Your current prop weighs 71lbs. Do you feel like you run out of up trim on approach? 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Shadrach

[BloodRedSkies]

20 minutes ago, McMooney said:

what is the airport and p2 system

The AirSport system(thanks aggressive autocorrect) is basically like an Altitude alert that runs off the transponder. The G5 has Alt Preselect so it's unnecessary IMO. 

The P2 is an annunciator system for gear, airspeed, etc. Not the worst thing, but it's loud and creepy. 

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, BloodRedSkies said:

The AirSport system(thanks aggressive autocorrect) is basically like an Altitude alert that runs off the transponder. The G5 has Alt Preselect so it's unnecessary IMO. 

The P2 is an annunciator system for gear, airspeed, etc. Not the worst thing, but it's loud and creepy. 

I'd def keep P2, anything to prevent the dreaded gear up

[Echo]

120mpg in climb is sweet spot. Keep mo pegged and 2500 rpm. THEN if you want to go fast burn some gas. 11.5gph at 7500 to 10k is where E is hauling. The plane is NOT a turbo so higher just sacrifices MP…and speed.  You have a beautiful plane. Enjoy!!!

[kortopates]

The AirSport system(thanks aggressive autocorrect) is basically like an Altitude alert that runs off the transponder. The G5 has Alt Preselect so it's unnecessary IMO. 
The P2 is an annunciator system for gear, airspeed, etc. Not the worst thing, but it's loud and creepy. 

The volume on the P2 is adjustable if it’s too loud for you.
Love mine.


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[BloodRedSkies]

14 minutes ago, kortopates said:

The volume on the P2 is adjustable if it’s too loud for you.
Love mine.


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I'll have to try and find the knob. I read in the supplement its lowest setting is 20% and default is 60%. So maybe if I turned it all the way down I can live with it. I'd probably sell it for a case of beer  when I rearrange my panel a little. 

Is the eyeball light above the FO side supposed to be clear and not red? Any one know what bulb part # that is? 

 

[kortopates]

I'll have to try and find the knob. I read in the supplement its lowest setting is 20% and default is 60%. So maybe if I turned it all the way down I can live with it. I'd probably sell it for a case of beer  when I rearrange my panel a little. 
Is the eyeball light above the FO side supposed to be clear and not red? Any one know what bulb part # that is? 
 

There is a adjustment pot screw at the bottom of the unit for adjusting the volume. Be careful as the pot is inside and any excessive pressure will dislodge it. It’s just glued into position. But if the worst happens the unit can be opened up and the pot re-glued into position. But note it can’t be powered on without it being installed as the case is grounded to the airframe.

Are you asking about the bulb for the AAS button. If so, the whole assembly is replaced if it’s goes - it’s not expensive.


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[BloodRedSkies]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

There is a adjustment pot screw at the bottom of the unit for adjusting the volume. Be careful as the pot is inside and any excessive pressure will dislodge it. It’s just glued into position. But if the worst happens the unit can be opened up and the pot re-glued into position. But note it can’t be powered on without it being installed as the case is grounded to the airframe.

Are you asking about the bulb for the AAS button. If so, the whole assembly is replaced if it’s goes - it’s not expensive.


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The bulb for the overhead lighting. I know the 68/69 and newer have the "eyeball" style above the right seat in the ceiling vs the map lights in the older. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by BloodRedSkies