What documents to keep?

[ArtVandelay]

So obviously logbooks should be kept.

 

But what about sales receipts? Especially if past warranty period.

 

What about equipment no longer installed? I assume all docs (PMA, manuals, receipts, etc) can be trashed.

 

I want to clean up the mess of documents.

[McMooney]

I keep everything, even the gas and oil receipts.

[EricJ]

You need records of compliance for any applicable ADs, relevant required AFMs, supplements, etc., for installed equipment only, 337s (which the FAA should also have a copy, so if it is lost it can be retrieved from there), the most recent altimeter/xpndr cert, records for any installed STC (337, AFM supplement, permission letter, etc), and maintenance records going back one year only.    You do not need to keep logbook records past one year old or for items superceded since then (e.g., at every oil change you can throw out the record for the previous oil change, even if it is less than a year old).

 

[ArtVandelay]

I keep everything, even the gas and oil receipts.

Why?

[Rick Junkin]

There's what's required, and then there's what's desired. @EricJ covered the required piece.

I'm in the middle of a panel upgrade and going through the same thing. I'm stripping out all of the old AFMSs and pitching or passing on all of the manuals for the removed avionics and other equipment. Unfortunately that is being replaced by even more documentation for the new equipment. I keep all of the 337s, 8130s, replaced parts tags, receipts and other miscellaneous maintenance documents in sheet protectors in a large binder, mainly just to have a complete detailed historical record of the stuff done/added to the airplane.

I know you're talking about historical materials you already have, but I also I keep documentation in a small binder in the airplane of the things that I would like to see if I were looking to buy my airplane. Things like:
1. Oil change interval history
2. Aircraft flight time log to show airplane is flown regularly
3. Detailed squawk and disposition log of all the little things and details that don't make it into the log book entries

Here's an old example page. I changed the oil and entered that on the next page (not shown). WBNF is "work before next flight" and NTDF is "not to delay flight". Squawk details are written up on a different form under the Squawks tab.

Cheers,
Rick

[A64Pilot]

I say keep everything if you think it’s necessary, but put it in some kind of plastic storage box, file it if you feel the need, some buyers think that’s important, some not.

Just don’t be the guy that staples every receipt for every tire, tube, battery etc in the logbook, that just garbages up what I consider to be an important document.

90% of the aircraft out there flying have multiple comm radios and nav gear according to FAA paperwork, because while everything is installed via a 337, rarely is anything removed via one.

Personally I think there is no value keeping documentation of the Loran and ADF that used to be installed, but some buyers think it shows meticulous records keeping, either way I don’t think it hurts.

My Maule had all the crap stapled into the logbook, my 140 came with a box full of stuff some going back 70 years and the Mooney just logbooks. Some things in the box are interesting but really worthless.

After purchasing the 140 and as I was leaving the seller comes out with a box with the original undamaged wheel pants, said she had forgot about them. Those things are very rare most were thrown away or torn up 50 years ago. So what you may think not important a buyer might. I was on the edge on whether to buy the 140 or not, if I knew about those wheel pants I would have paid more than I did.

So some buyer in the future may be impressed with that box of paper., others not.

Oh, my 140’s log books were destroyed in a fire in 1950 or something, some wouldn’t buy it because it doesn’t have all its logs, seriously. Me I figure what happened or didn’t 50 years ago may have little bearing so it wasn’t a show stopper for me, but it is to some. Some won’t buy an airplane that’s had a prop strike for example, even if it was 20 years ago on a different engine. They say that’s “damage history” 

Edited July 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

You need records of compliance for any applicable ADs, relevant required AFMs, supplements, etc., for installed equipment only, 337s (which the FAA should also have a copy, so if it is lost it can be retrieved from there), the most recent altimeter/xpndr cert, records for any installed STC (337, AFM supplement, permission letter, etc), and maintenance records going back one year only.    You do not need to keep logbook records past one year old or for items superceded since then (e.g., at every oil change you can throw out the record for the previous oil change, even if it is less than a year old).

I understand what the regs say.  But someone that does not keep the logs on these nearly antique planes appears to be either careless or trying to hide something. Sure you can search 337's.  But why make it hard for a buyer to understand the history of the plane.  And you can show that the oil was just changed.  But that doesn't show if the plane was maintained regularly.  And you can show that the plane just had an Annual.  But that doesn't show if it sat for a couple years missing an Annual or two.

If you tried to sell me a plane with a logbook (airframe or engine) that only went back one year I would either highly discount the plane or walk away.  

Edited July 29, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[toto]

I can tell everything I would need to know about a plane if it has well-maintained maintenance logs. I can tell how often it’s flown, what the oil change interval has been, and all major and minor repair events. 

I’ve purchased planes with crazy reams of invoices and credit card receipts, and I generally wish that the same amount of effort had been put into keeping accurate logs. I don’t particularly care what someone paid for the part or the repair, and I wouldn’t typically expect to share my receipts with a buyer either. 

Most of my invoices now come via PDF in emails, which is just fine by me

 

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Just don’t be the guy that staples every receipt for every tire, tube, battery etc in the logbook, that just garbages up what I consider to be an important document.

You must be talking about the logs for my new-to-me airplane!

[McMooney]

9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why?

Because I can?  As far as i can tell,  birdy has absolutely complete records from her birth, I intend to keep it that way.

It's how she was maintained before me and it's how the next owner will get her.

[LevelWing]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:42 AM, ArtVandelay said:

Why?

I don't keep gas and oil receipts, but if it goes into the shop, I keep the receipt. It shows a history of the aircraft and what's been done over time, to include when, where, and who did it. The logbooks show the required entries per FAA rules, but additional receipts is just a more in-depth recording of the plane's history.

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The Smithsonian will be happy to have complete history.

Only if you have the first one off the assembly line...

https://www.si.edu/object/mooney-mite%3Anasm_A19830054000

https://mooneymite.org/articles-individualmites/N3199K/N3199Khistory.htm

[M20F]

I keep everything because if I ever decide to sell it adds to the provance.  In fire proof bags in a fireproof safe.  I keep lighter fluid and matches next to it though, just in case…..

[Aerodon]

I like thinning the logbooks down by removing all old stapled entries and keeping in an envelope marked 'old documents'. I'm not going to scan them for a future buyer, but he is welcome to have them.  A pitot static test result or a magneto overhaul from 10 years ago has no relevance.  Nor does a previous engine logbook (doesn't Lycoming ask for them back with a factory reman?).

I like keeping a spreadsheet of time in service / time remaining for all major components.  (magnetos, starter, alternator, etc.).  Anytime I change something (like a battery) its not hard to add the date and TT.

And an avionics spreadsheet.

I just got a new AFM from Mooney for an Encore.  It has no supplements, so an ideal opportunity to populate it with just the current optional equipment and avionics actually installed.

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

[wombat]

Which plane would you rather buy?

 

1. A plane where the owner won't let you take the plane out of their hangar for a prebuy, and won't let you or your mechanic remove the interior or open the engine enough to see anything inside?
2. A plane that is missing logbooks prior to 1990?
3. A plane that has only logbooks and AD Compliance, 337's, & STCs for documentation; no invoices or receipts or anything 'extra' ?

[toto]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

Which plane would you rather buy?

 

1. A plane where the owner won't let you take the plane out of their hangar for a prebuy, and won't let you or your mechanic remove the interior or open the engine enough to see anything inside?
2. A plane that is missing logbooks prior to 1990?
3. A plane that has only logbooks and AD Compliance, 337's, & STCs for documentation; no invoices or receipts or anything 'extra' ?

I would choose #3 every day of the week and twice on Sunday

 

[Pinecone]

2 or 3.

NOT 1

[hubcap]

#3 Every time

[M20F]

I always pick #1 because the owner wants to protect the airplane and ensure it doesn’t ever get damaged.  I trust all Mooney owners because they are #1. 

[ArtVandelay]

What happens if someone loses an STC document, asking for a friend?

I know 337s are copied to FAA

[Andy95W]

Contact the STC holder. They should have a record that your N# had the STCed modification installed. They can reissue the STC paperwork with the N# annotated on it. 

[toto]

9 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

What happens if someone loses an STC document, asking for a friend?

I know 337s are copied to FAA

If you order the airworthiness records from FAA, they will send you a PDF with every completed 337 form that was filed. This is essentially a scan of each original 337. 

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

What happens if someone loses an STC document, asking for a friend?

I know 337s are copied to FAA

AFM supplements and similar documents can often be downloaded from manufacturer sites.   The STC authorization and permission letter is often filed with the 337 as part of the approved data package, so if you get the files from the FAA you might get everything else you need.

[ArtVandelay]

Contact the STC holder. They should have a record that your N# had the STCed modification installed. They can reissue the STC paperwork with the N# annotated on it. 

That assumes the STC holder is still in business.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

What happens if someone loses an STC document, asking for a friend?

I know 337s are copied to FAA

Just to summarize:

1.  get everything you can from the FAA
2.  contact the STC holder
3.  failing the first two:  get creative