Inadvertent to FIKI??

[xcrmckenna]

Has anyone upgraded an inadvertent icing Mooney to full FIKI? Still searching for the perfect Bravo after losing my 201. I’ve thought a lot about making the FIKI upgrade on a stock wing but the cost just keeps climbing. So thought finishing an inadvertent could be reasonable.

 

 

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[1980Mooney]

11 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

Has anyone upgraded an inadvertent icing Mooney to full FIKI? Still searching for the perfect Bravo after losing my 201. I’ve thought a lot about making the FIKI upgrade on a stock wing but the cost just keeps climbing. So thought finishing an inadvertent could be reasonable.

 

 

[xcrmckenna]

 
 

This is why I love Mooneyspace! Thanks for the link.


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[Fritz1]

Yes to all in the thread, I called CAV 6 years ago when I was Bravo shopping and asked the same question, their answer was that an upgrade costs about as much as a new installation, since an installed system can typically be bought for 25-30% of the new installation cost an upgrade or a new installation into an existing aircraft is rarely done, eventually I found a FIKI Bravo that fit the bill and found that the TKS system works very well in moderate icing conditions, key to success is to always leave yourself a way out, the learning process correlating forecast and pireps to what you actually see on your aircraft takes quite some time and there are plenty of surprises

[jlunseth]

I did the same thing a few years ago, called CAV. I was told that converting an inadvertent to FIKI is actually more costly than adding FIKI to a stock wing. Basically, the inadvertent system has to be removed and a new system installed. So you have the cost of removal plus the cost of installing new. 

[FlyingScot]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

I did the same thing a few years ago, called CAV. I was told that converting an inadvertent to FIKI is actually more costly than adding FIKI to a stock wing. Basically, the inadvertent system has to be removed and a new system installed. So you have the cost of removal plus the cost of installing new. 

Same. Also - I was also told that the the difference between the FIKI and inadvertent installations is primarily a heated stall warning and redundant pumps/lines - the panel for rates are the same. I guess the larger question is if you know there is icing, do you really want to fly in there? 

[jlunseth]

Well, living in the Great Lakes area I can think of many times it would be useful. For about six months we have low stratus that is not very thick but is below freezing. The problem is that it hangs around at about the altitude where all our instruments procedures happen. Not much risk in going up through it, FIKI or no, but the problem is you have to come back down at some point and sure don’t want to get caught right in the stratus layer because that is where ATC needs you for the approach. Hopefully, if you find yourself in some kind of inadvertent icing event at cruise, you have left yourself an out and you use it. But if you have to fly an approach to land the possibility is there of being hung up in an icing layer for a protracted period, unable to exit. It would not be unsafe with FIKI, but definitely would be if no FIKI. That is what stops a lot of us from flying much in the winter around here, or at least, speaking for myself, it stops me.

[FlyingScot]

2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Well, living in the Great Lakes area I can think of many times it would be useful. For about six months we have low stratus that is not very thick but is below freezing. The problem is that it hangs around at about the altitude where all our instruments procedures happen. Not much risk in going up through it, FIKI or no, but the problem is you have to come back down at some point and sure don’t want to get caught right in the stratus layer because that is where ATC needs you for the approach. Hopefully, if you find yourself in some kind of inadvertent icing event at cruise, you have left yourself an out and you use it. But if you have to fly an approach to land the possibility is there of being hung up in an icing layer for a protracted period, unable to exit. It would not be unsafe with FIKI, but definitely would be if no FIKI. That is what stops a lot of us from flying much in the winter around here, or at least, speaking for myself, it stops me.

Agreed - I live in the Great Lakes too, and I fly a Mooney with TKS several hundred hrs a year in this stuff, all times of the year and mostly IFR in winter for the reasons you describe.

I go through a lot of TKS fluid in the winter. That being said, I never accept a clearance that puts me into known icing. (A forecast of possible icing is not known icing.) I run into icing inadvertently in the Great Lakes to be sure, but I don’t believe a TKS or a FIKI is a get out of jail card.

And I won’t permit ATC to hang me up in an icing layer.  

Keep in mind that the FIKI and Inadvertent versions have the same flow rates, the difference is in redundancy, not in ice clearing capability. Both, I believe, give one more safety margin in executing a plan B - neither is sufficient to allow one to press on for extended periods into significant icing.

my humble $0.02  

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I was flying back from Portland OR about a year ago. I was at 8000 and there was known icing above me. It looked like I would break out at Medford where the MEAs get higher. As I approached Medford the controller says "Severe icing just reported at 11000, climb and maintain 11000" I broke out about 30  seconds later as expected and I canceled and continued VFR under the clouds. It sounded like the controller was as happy about it as I was. 

[exM20K]

12 hours ago, jlunseth said:

But if you have to fly an approach to land the possibility is there of being hung up in an icing layer for a protracted period, unable to exit. It would not be unsafe with FIKI, but definitely would be if no FIKI. That is what stops a lot of us from flying much in the winter around here, or at least, speaking for myself, it stops me.

It is worthwhile to practice an “icing conditions” approach.  Minimum airspeed in icing conditions is 120 KIAS.  Maximum flap extension if icing has been encountered is 120 KIAS.  Practice would be something like an ILS or GPS approach flown at >120 KIAS, takeoff flaps only and a full stop landing also with takeoff flaps only.  Do you know your approach and stall speeds in this configuration?.  It’s very different from SOP for me and good to perform in benign weather before trying it “in anger”

-dan

[Fly Boomer]

19 hours ago, FlyingScot said:

Keep in mind that the FIKI and Inadvertent versions have the same flow rates, the difference is in redundancy, not in ice clearing capability. Both, I believe, give one more safety margin in executing a plan B - neither is sufficient to allow one to press on for extended periods into significant icing.

I have inadvertent.  I understand that the stall warning is different, but aside from that, I like your philosophy.  My current plan — and it would be the same if I had FIKI — is up, down, or turn around.  I haven’t experienced it, but I have read that SLD icing can lead to a bad day before you can say “Bob’s your uncle”.  NASA, in their dry and somewhat circumspect manner, says “Certification for flight into icing does NOT mean that the aircraft is capable of safe flight through SLD. Under these conditions, ice may accrete aft of the protected regions. Your aircraft's ice protection system may not be able to adequately protect the aircraft from the effects of SLD.”

https://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/1_1_2_5.html

Another link to a super cool (heh) video:

https://flycasey.com/sld-icing-demonstration

[jlunseth]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:08 AM, FlyingScot said:

And I won’t permit ATC to hang me up in an icing layer.  

Hopefully we all work with ATC to try to stay out of an icing layer as long as possible if we find ourselves in possible icing, but there are circumstances where they have no choice. Since we are talking about FIKI systems here and the decision to fly or not when there is probable icing, if you are non-FIKI, working with ATC to stay out of the icing layer as long as possible before descending is Play B. Plan A is not to be in the air at all. 

[Mufflerbearing]

I recognize that everyone has a different level of comfort.  I purchased my Screaming Eagle with FIKI already installed.  It was a must for me.  This gave my wife a level of comfort and may I say, more than a parachute would have.  I have respect for ice, but have also flown in a ton of it.  My comfort level is probably higher than most because of experience, but I really love FIKI. 

[aviatoreb]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:16 AM, jlunseth said:

Hopefully we all work with ATC to try to stay out of an icing layer as long as possible if we find ourselves in possible icing, but there are circumstances where they have no choice. Since we are talking about FIKI systems here and the decision to fly or not when there is probable icing, if you are non-FIKI, working with ATC to stay out of the icing layer as long as possible before descending is Play B. Plan A is not to be in the air at all. 

Thats how I use my non-fiki tks.  So years go by when I do not see a single wisp of ice - but living near the Great Lakes - I am pretty good with my anti-ice flight planing, or sometimes planning not to fly planning, but I am very glad to have tks as one more backup plan.