Dual Surefly Ignition Systems?

[Oscar Avalle]

7 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I can't find something that I found previously - it was something like that one emag gets you to something like 85% of the benefit that would be two emags.

is that right?

I am trying to understand if it is worth it to think of getting a second?

Yes, I am trying to understand what are the benefits of replacing the second mag. Better performance? getting rid of the 500 hr ovehaul? Anybody has a response?

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Yes, I am trying to understand what are the benefits of replacing the second mag. Better performance? getting rid of the 500 hr ovehaul? Anybody has a response?

Exactly.  That's my wonder.

[KSMooniac]

Out of curiosity, how long does that separate backup battery last if the alternator goes south?

I don't remember exactly, but there were 2 or 3 battery size options, with increasing cost and weight of course. I went with the 3 amp-hour option and think that is supposed to be good for a couple of hours... Certainly enough to land somewhere reasonable. Remember, it only powers the ignition.

If/when I go all electric, I might add another for an essential bus option.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

I can't find something that I found previously - it was something like that one emag gets you to something like 85% of the benefit that would be two emags.
is that right?
I am trying to understand if it is worth it to think of getting a second?

That was the conventional wisdom from the sales and tech folks at Electroair while I was waiting. When I was finally able to purchase, they said they were surprised to see measurable benefit with 2 installed. I won't be able to quantity going straight to 2 from an old dual mag, unfortunately.

I overheard Smooth Power saying essentially that at OSH last week. 1 is good and 2 is gooder?

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[MisfitSELF]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:55 PM, toto said:

Out of curiosity, how long does that separate backup battery last if the alternator goes south?

From the 5 minutes I've had to read the Surefly Airframe instructions for the dual SIM config, you have to have a backup battery sized such that you can power that SIM for at least an hour. 

Dealing with batteries, however, it's got to be an imperfect science which gives me a creepy feeling.  So as the battery ages, how do you know how long you really have?  Normally you kinda know your battery needs to be replaced as starting is more difficult, or you can't power things normally on pre-flight, etc.  For this "back-up" you really don't have a good indication that it's not getting or keeping a charge unless you add additional gauges.  So you still start on the left mag, on your primary battery and the only time your backup battery and second sim is online is after engine start.  So how do you know that the alternator isn't the only thing powering your second sim and that backup battery is dead or dying?

Here's the circuit diagram from the Surefly site for how that second SIM should be wired:



Bruce

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by MisfitSELF

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Yes, I am trying to understand what are the benefits of replacing the second mag. Better performance? getting rid of the 500 hr ovehaul? Anybody has a response?

I would think that having ignition advance on both ignition sources to be the real benefit.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Shadrach

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I would that think having ignition advance on both ignition sources to be the real benefit.

That would be my guess.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

From the 5 minutes I've had to read the Surefly Airframe instructions for the dual SIM config, you have to have a backup battery sized such that you can power that SIM for at least an hour. 

Dealing with batteries, however, it's got to be an imperfect science which gives me a creepy feeling.  So as the battery ages, how do you know how long you really have?  Normally you kinda know your battery needs to be replaced as starting is more difficult, or you can't power things normally on pre-flight, etc.  For this "back-up" you really don't have a good indication that it's not getting or keeping a charge unless you add additional gauges.  So you still start on the left mag, on your primary battery and the only time your backup battery and second sim is online is after engine start.  So how do you know that the alternator isn't the only thing powering your second sim and that backup battery is dead or dying?

Here's the circuit diagram from the Surefly site for how that second SIM should be wired:



Bruce

I breezed through the manual, but it seems there are relatively strict testing and/or replacement requirements on your standby battery.

[Austintatious]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:38 PM, MisfitSELF said:

OP here.  At the risk of hi-jacking my own thread -- last night while night flying, my alternator fell offline.  I had the "HI LO VOLTS" light annunciate and my battery started draining.  Luckily it reset with the master switch cycle.  But it got me thinking about whether I'd want to go the dual electronic ignition route just yet.  If there is a discussion on this on Mooney space please link it here rather than completely go down that rabbit hole in this thread.

 

Thanks to Austintatious for posting the link to Surefly's latest info on this topic.  I'll be sure to read the airframe STC instructions.  Also, good info posted above for those who have the "D" engines (mine is the IO-360-A3B6 (w/o the "D").

 

Bruce

You alternator would not have caused you to lose ignition even with dual sims... One of them has to be directly wired to the main ship battery... So it is on all the time even with the master switch off.    The second has to be wired to a second battery.

What sucks for me is that even though the rocket has 2 batteries, I cannot simply wire each sim to its own batt.  The requirement is that the aircraft has to have a factory dual electric system with 2 batteries and the Rocket is not that.

This means I will have to purchase another battery that will cost around 1000.00 to connect the second SIM to .  This will provide over 4 hours in the event of a complete electrical failure.  I dont even carry that much fuel.

I do not understand why my two batteries are not sufficient.  There is no way that I can think of that I could possibly lose both sims if it was done this way.  It is simple and robust... even if one battery were to fry, the other should be fine... Yes they are wired in parallel but so what?  I have never seen a battery in parallel cause any harm to other batteries it is paralleled with.  True, if the load requires both batteries, then one goes bad, the remaining battery will be carrying 100 percent of the load which can over tax it and obviously drain it faster... but this is just not the case with these low draw SIMs.

[Austintatious]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:19 PM, Oscar Avalle said:

Yes, I am trying to understand what are the benefits of replacing the second mag. Better performance? getting rid of the 500 hr ovehaul? Anybody has a response?

No overhaul, more reliable. (haha, though I have had one malfunction already, replaced it with gen 2), a lot less likely to have a catastrophic failure.

Better starts as now you have both mags and thus both plugs firing at TDC on start.

SOME installations allow for timing advance, but not all.  You do get a more complete burn... in fact when we installed just one we noticed a slightly higher ITT.  Cant say however that we noticed any appreciable increase in efficiency though.

[Austintatious]

23 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

From the 5 minutes I've had to read the Surefly Airframe instructions for the dual SIM config, you have to have a backup battery sized such that you can power that SIM for at least an hour. 

Dealing with batteries, however, it's got to be an imperfect science which gives me a creepy feeling.  So as the battery ages, how do you know how long you really have?  Normally you kinda know your battery needs to be replaced as starting is more difficult, or you can't power things normally on pre-flight, etc.  For this "back-up" you really don't have a good indication that it's not getting or keeping a charge unless you add additional gauges.  So you still start on the left mag, on your primary battery and the only time your backup battery and second sim is online is after engine start.  So how do you know that the alternator isn't the only thing powering your second sim and that backup battery is dead or dying?

 

A few things...

With 2 sims, you will be starting on BOTH sims (provided you have both on)

The approved backup batteries have a test you can do.... and if you are really paranoid, you could shut off your master switch during a mag check or just after starting before you turn on your avionics master would work as well. .  Also, if you put in an electroair style panel, you could indeed start on only the second sim if you wanted to.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Austintatious

[MisfitSELF]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:32 PM, Austintatious said:

A few things...

With 2 sims, you will be starting on BOTH sims (provided you have both on)

The approved backup batteries have a test you can do.... and if you are really paranoid, you could shut off your master switch during a mag check or just after starting before you turn on your avionics master would work as well. .  Also, if you put in an electroair style panel, you could indeed start on only the second sim if you wanted to.

 

I totally get how both sims would still operate even with the master off.  That part that creeps me out is that I don't know how long the battery(or batteries) are REALLY going to last once that alternator dies.  I've had a "fully charged battery" die after maybe 30 minutes flying in the day with one radio and transponder running.

Edited August 6, 2023 by MisfitSELF

[philiplane]

There is zero performance benefit to a dual Surefly installation. But there is the risk of a dual failure if electric power fails, or something as stupid as a wire breaks, or breaker fails, or one of the coils inside the Surefly fails. By keeping one properly maintained conventional magneto, you retain backup no matter what. 

Remember, we know the failure modes of magnetos after more than a century of experience with them. A well maintained magneto is pretty reliable.

We have less than five years experience with Surefly, and it contains an electronic control board inside. Electronics have difficulty handling high heat long-term. In this situation, we're asking a circuit board to live in an environment that would kill most boards quickly. 200 to 300 degrees are seen in the engine compartment, and most electronics are only good to 150. The jury is still out on longevity.

And I'm otherwise happy with the Sureflys I have on my Aztec. But there is no way I would put two on each engine at this time. 

[EricJ]

It's been mentioned before, that if we had only had electronic ignitions and somebody invented a shiny-new ignition system that was self-powered and only had a few simple components, people would be paying up to get rid of those complex things that need electric backups and get the new simple system.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

It's been mentioned before, that if we had only had electronic ignitions and somebody invented a shiny-new ignition system that was self-powered and only had a few simple components, people would be paying up to get rid of those complex things that need electric backups and get the new simple system.

Maybe- if they totally analog ratchet-master 9000 included the ability to advance the timing!

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

I totally get how both sims would still operate even with the master off.  That part that creeps me out is that I don't know how long the battery(or batteries) are REALLY going to last once that alternator dies.  I've had a "fully charged battery" die after maybe 30 minutes flying in the day with one radio and transponder running.

Two acronyms used by some battery makers are SOC and SOH.  SOC is state of charge, and SOH is state of health.  A battery can be “fully charged” but have a poor SOH.  Batteries are not often checked for condition as long as the engine starts.  Once the engine starts, you are mostly living on the alternator output, but if the alternator malfunctions, the battery may not have the capacity to run things for long.  It’s good to both insure that the SOC is good, and also do capacity tests.

[Pinecone]

That is why for the ship's main battery, it should be capacity checked every so often.  Concorde has recommendations of how often to do it based on the age of the battery.  And they also say  that the ability to start the engine easily has NOTHING to do with the battery capacity.

The Garmin G-5 has a procedure to check it's internal back up battery.

If I had a dual electronic system, the extra back up for one of them would also get capacity checked periodically.

[Browncbr1]

It takes just one alternator failure to realize surefly mags aren’t a great solution.  Yes, better starts, but you’re grounded if the charging system has a problem.    I had a SF for a long time and loved it, but now I just feel better about conventional bendix mags

[Austintatious]

Sorry everyone, I cant agree with the analysis you are putting forth on the E mags.  Let me address some of the concerns.

 

[Quote]That part that creeps me out is that I don't know how long the battery(or batteries) are REALLY going to last once that alternator dies.  I've had a "fully charged battery" die after maybe 30 minutes flying in the day with one radio and transponder running. [/quote]

Sure, but in the event you have an alternator failure, the prudent thing to do is to get to the ground And to shed all unnecessary power draws.   And yes, batteries can go bad and have good voltage but not have their rated capacity.  This is why on a duel install, you have TWO batteries, the likelihood of this happening to both is very low.

 

[quote]But there is the risk of a dual failure if electric power fails, or something as stupid as a wire breaks, or breaker fails, or one of the coils inside the Surefly fails. By keeping one properly maintained conventional magneto, you retain backup no matter what.  [/quote]

We are talking a dual system on which both sims are redundant to one another... You would need 2 wires to break,  Two coils to fail.   They are not on breakers so I dont know how a breaker would result in a failed engine.    You seem to give a lot of confidence to the conventional mag, when those can fail mechanically and catastrophically.   If you are gong to come up with doomsday, multiple unrelated failures scenarios where you loose all ignition, you have to also apply that to the conventional mag.  Since in a dual sim vs single sim / conventional mag setup,  in both installations the two ignition sources are 100 percent independent from one another.  POINT to a common point of failure for a 2 sim installation.

 

[quote]It's been mentioned before, that if we had only had electronic ignitions and somebody invented a shiny-new ignition system that was self-powered and only had a few simple components, people would be paying up to get rid of those complex things that need electric backups and get the new simple system.[/quote]

I doubt it...  you would have to convince someone that a component with a 600 hour life, way more moving parts and a catastrophic failure mode is a better option that the one with fewer moving parts and a 2000+ hour service life.

23 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

It takes just one alternator failure to realize surefly mags aren’t a great solution.  Yes, better starts, but you’re grounded if the charging system has a problem.    I had a SF for a long time and loved it, but now I just feel better about conventional bendix mags

well, I guess you have a point... If your charger is failed you will need to get that fixed... Whereas if you have conventional mags you can go fly with a dark cockpit. 

I don't see myself doing the latter.

[Pinecone]

44 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

well, I guess you have a point... If your charger is failed you will need to get that fixed... Whereas if you have conventional mags you can go fly with a dark cockpit. 

I don't see myself doing the latter.

And no radio, no transponder, no beacon/strobes, and you get to hand prop the engine to do so.

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

well, I guess you have a point... If your charger is failed you will need to get that fixed... Whereas if you have conventional mags you can go fly with a dark cockpit. 

I don't see myself doing the latter.

I've done it and would do it again.   It made me appreciate having the air instruments, so I'm now reluctant to put in a glass panel. 

Being able to fly that way without worrying about engine operation is a very good thing, imho.   

[Austintatious]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I've done it and would do it again.   It made me appreciate having the air instruments, so I'm now reluctant to put in a glass panel. 

Being able to fly that way without worrying about engine operation is a very good thing, imho.   

Ive had enough vacuum instruments fail on me and try to kill me in IMC, id smash every last one of them with a hammer if I could.

[Browncbr1]

I meant, with conventional mags, you can limp home rather than end up with a costly and burdensome AOG situation.