Well that fell through.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

BTW, why not sell concurrent with your next annual inspection.  The thing is taken apart anyway.  Best time to get involved and do a pre-buy.  They happen EVERY year.  

That works well for a reasonably technically astute buyer that has the opportunity to inspect it or send somebody to inspect it while it is apart.    I bought my airplane that way; it was scattered across an IAs hangar who did an extended (four month long) and imho shoddy annual on it that mostly, also imho, served to milk the remote seller for an extended annual.   It did, however, give me multiple chances to go up and look at it while it was taken apart, so I had a very good idea of its general condition.   It then got sent to Maxwell's after I found a large tank leak after it was moved to my hangar for a more formal inspection, and so I had Maxwells do a formal PPI while it was at their shop for the tank repair.  I still wound up spending a lot of time and effort and $$ fixing items that were missed by or caused by the previous IA et al for many months after I took possession.

Overall it's been a great airplane, though;  I knew it was a fixer-upper, which is what I wanted, and it has generally met or exceeded my expectations, but no matter what you do or how much inspection it gets there's always the risk for surprises.

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

If you buy your borescope you can use it to inspect the tubes without pulling seats.   

What is that process please.?

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, Mcstealth said:

What is that process please.?

One way is to squeeze the borescope between the side panel and the tubes/airframe and get a look at the tubes and/or insulation that way.   I've done this a few times and it works pretty well to get an idea whether there's obvious reason to pull the panels.   You can often get a very good idea of the tube conditions this way.   You may still have to remove some side panel screws, but usually not the entire panel.

[McMooney]

2 hours ago, Tom 4536 said:

Sounds fair. Do you feel a prebuy should include removing the seats and side panels to inspect for corrosion. I am a bit hesitant about having the interior taken apart but I'm just curious how others feel about this.

every shop that's taken my interior apart has left somethign up, from broken lights to missing screws, without FAIL, from the mooney guru to the random shop

[T. Peterson]

4 hours ago, rickseeman said:

And what would you have done when he told you that you aren't leaving unless you give him $2,500? 

“Just watch me.”

[Sue Bon]

11 hours ago, EricJ said:

A mechanic can't ground your airplane

Another difference between you guys and us over here. If a mechanic finds a problem here, I don't know if he can ground the airplane, but he can and will refuse to give it back until the problem has been resolved. This has happened to me a couple of times with the explanation, "We are aware of X problem. We can't give you your airplane until it's fixed. Aviation is 100% and nothing less."

It definitely contributes to the costs which seem to be at least double what you pay in the US, but I do feel really good about the service that I get.

[ArtVandelay]

Another difference between you guys and us over here. If a mechanic finds a problem here, I don't know if he can ground the airplane, but he can and will refuse to give it back until the problem has been resolved. This has happened to me a couple of times with the explanation, "We are aware of X problem. We can't give you your airplane until it's fixed. Aviation is 100% and nothing less."
It definitely contributes to the costs which seem to be at least double what you pay in the US, but I do feel really good about the service that I get.

What prevents a unscrupulous mechanic from taking advantage of this opportunity? Can a mechanic go out to the tie down area and start grounding planes because he feels they aren’t 100%?
Sometimes it’s a judgement call, as owner and pilot, I want the final decision.

[Sue Bon]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Can a mechanic go out to the tie down area and start grounding planes because he feels they aren’t 100%?

No, only if they find something while the plane is under their care. For example, when they did a deep dive during my panel upgrade, the maintainer noticed that the bolts of my main landing gear were worn down. The parts needed to be ordered from the US (of course), delaying the handover yet another week or ten days. I said that I would take the risk and fly the plane until the parts came in and they said, "No way. We are aware of this now and can't let you do it." They were as frustrated as I was.

Shops are so overwhelmed with work here that they don't need to look for it. There are some bad apples. I've dealt with them, both cutting corners and outright ripping me off. I'm happy to have a great shop now.

[BDPetersen]

I made the mistake of flying my Citabria to a seller for inspection and delivery where it developed a surprise bad cylinder. In my own hangar, it would have been fixed. There, it was too much trouble to do anything but adjust the price. Oh well, I try to make every mistake I can survive. Remind me to tell my Eli Graubert story sometime.

[FlyingDude]

I have a European friend who owned a fleet and worked as a full-time aircraft mechanic at some time.  He has a broad network of other maintainers in Europe.  He has been among my mentors when I have questions.  One thing he told me was that him and everyone in his network agreed on the excessive maintenance in Europe.  They like the American IRAN approach.  

[FlyingDude]

4 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

I don't know if he can ground the airplane, but he can and will refuse to give it back until the problem has been resolved.

Can you look at it yourself or bring in another mechanic to take a look, to make sure that the problem is not imaginary, to be solved by imaginary parts replacements, spending imaginary manhours, but to be paid in real money??

Ít's not always a dishonest mechanic either.  Some mechanics are better than others...  Savvy's Mike Busch has stories about how some mechanic wanted to tear down an entire engine but he solved the issue by cleaning the air filter.  

[ArtVandelay]

No, only if they find something while the plane is under their care. For example, when they did a deep dive during my panel upgrade, the mechanic noticed that the bolts of my main landing gear were worn down. The parts needed to be ordered from the US (of course), delaying the handover yet another week or ten days. I said that I would take the risk and fly the plane until the parts came in and they said, "No way. We are aware of this now and can't let you do it." They were as frustrated as I was.

How does a panel upgrade effect the landing gear? In other words what made an avionics shop inspect the landing gear? And what specification were they using to decide if the landing gear bolts were worn too much?
I think they would need to swing the gear and check for play, something that would be done in an annual inspection.
So either your annual inspection shop overlooked it or the avionics shop went looking for labor intensive ($$$) work, what you called a deep dive. Either way, I would not be happy and would be questioning the shops involved.

[Sue Bon]

21 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

Can you look at it yourself or bring in another mechanic to take a look, to make sure that the problem is not imaginary, to be solved by imaginary parts replacements, spending imaginary manhours, but to be paid in real money??

Ít's not always a dishonest mechanic either.  Some mechanics are better than others...  Savvy's Mike Busch has stories about how some mechanic wanted to tear down an entire engine but he solved the issue by cleaning the air filter.  

They are very careful and show me everything.

 

18 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

How does a panel upgrade effect the landing gear? In other words what made an avionics shop inspect the landing gear? And what specification were they using to decide if the landing gear bolts were worn too much?
I think they would need to swing the gear and check for play, something that would be done in an annual inspection.
So either your annual inspection shop overlooked it or the avionics shop went looking for labor intensive ($$$) work, what you called a deep dive. Either way, I would not be happy and would be questioning the shops involved.

Yes, you're right. They did the annual at the same time as the avionics upgrade. I neglected to mention that. They found excessive play while swinging the gear.

 

32 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

I have a European friend who owned a fleet and worked as a full-time aircraft mechanic at some time.  He has a broad network of other maintainers in Europe.  He has been among my mentors when I have questions.  One thing he told me was that him and everyone in his network agreed on the excessive maintenance in Europe.  They like the American IRAN approach.  

I'm a bit torn on this. My plane is now in for the 50-hour service, which is something that I don't think you guys are required to do. It's a "small" one - oil change and other stuff. I don't know exactly what's involved. I can only say that I feel safe with my shop. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a maintainer, and I only know the basics about how it all works, so I trust their expertise. But it is expensive as heck.

[FlyingDude]

1 minute ago, Sue Bon said:

50-hour service, which is something that I don't think you guys are required to do.

Not required for personal use but I don't know anyone who doesn't. I change my oil every 25h and filter every 50h...  

 

[hubcap]

When I bought Myrtle, the seller was an hour or so away. I flew down and did a test flight. The seller and I agreed on the price and terms, and signed the sales contract. I put a deposit in escrow and he brought the plane to my mechanic. I flew him home and let the mechanic do the pre-buy inspection. Found 2 minor issues which the seller agreed to fix with no problem. Done deal, what is so difficult about that? 
 

To the guys who won’t let anyone inspect their plane outside their hangar…no thanks. The sales contract spells out the details. If you aren’t willing to have an inspection performed outside your hangar, on your plane that has had owner maintenance on it for 15 years, then I suspect many folks won’t be interested in your plane.

My plane is in impeccable condition and an inspection would verify that. 

 

[A64Pilot]

I’ve sold and worked on airplanes in Countries where the mechanic can ground an airplane.

What keeps it honest is their Federal agency, if the owner thinks he’s being fleeced they investigate, usually if your being fleeced your not the first, if they find an unscrupulous mechanic, at best he’s no longer a mechanic, but I’ve heard of jail time too.

Only time I’ve seen it is the “grounding” is a last resort, every time I’ve seen it the problem was shown to the owner and fixed, no “grounding” was necessary. I think any mechanic that grounds one without it being a very serious issue is bad for his business as people hear of it and avoid that mechanic. Many countries especially those under the British system require the factory to approve or even perform any major repair, for example I had to fly to St Vincent to replace a section of lower longeron tube, which really was not a difficult repair. Aircraft didn’t have wing root fairings and rainwater had dripped on the tube for years.

Even most Central and South America countries have much more stringent regulations than the US, like TBO’s are mandatory etc.

I assume for aircraft without factory support they have to hire a DER to design a repair?

As much as we complain we have it easy in the US, many parts of the world fuel is outrageous and there are many fees to pay just for flying a few circuits

Edited June 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

I ran into a seller like this in the process of finding my plane.  They would only allow a PPI in their hangar.  I eventually passed on that one.

I can understand both sides, but some of that is where the sales agreement comes into play.

And, I definitely see the seller requiring a deposit, held in escrow, before allowing any mechanic touch the plane.

[A64Pilot]

53 minutes ago, hubcap said:

My plane is in impeccable condition and an inspection would verify that. 

 

It was until some jack leg idiot got ahold of it during his PPI, and the deal falls through leaving you to try to fix the things they broke like your plastic interior panels etc.

When the day comes for me to sell mine the buyer is welcome to come sit in my airconditioned hangar and I can show him or her anything they want to see and they are allowed to bring their mechanic, I’ll even feed them lunch, they can swim in the pool weather permitting, I’ll even let them stay in the guest bedrooms, pick them up and take them back to the airport etc. But I’m going along for any test flights too.

But I don’t think I’m flying the airplane to some facility that I know nothing about and leaving it there with the hope that I don’t end up with any maintenance induced problems.

My circa 1981 plastic interior is in pretty good shape, but that stuff is fragile, have to treat it like it’s made from egg shells.

I drove up to Moultrie GA to look at the airplane I bought, decided I liked it, agreed on a price if it passed inspection on a handshake, and drove home, drove back to the owners mechanics facility and paid him to do the work for me to inspect. This was in 2021 when sales were crazy and the seller got offers higher than mine sight unseen, but we had shook hands so he honored the price.

Paid for the airplane and had a friend fly me up to bring it home 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[FlyingDude]

My mechanic and I flew all the way from MI to ID for the prebuy.  I made one-way reservations, in case it fell through and couldn't fly the plane home.  Cost me a bit. 

If I sold it today, I would expect the prospective buyer to come to my hangar with his own mechanic.  But I'll be present.  Because I don't trust "any mechanic" touching my plane.  They may still walk away and I would be left with fixing it.

This is my first plane and I haven't sold any planes.  However I've sold cars (both in Europe and US) and people are so wishy washy.  So needy.  So grumpy.  Some almost expect you to give the car, give some cash and bend over in front of them.   

[larryb]

I bought my first Mooney from a local person and a Controller ad. It was maintained by a local MSC, and I would be using the same MSC. So I just called them to discuss the plane. There were no surprises later on.

 

For the Encore, I bought it from a dealer. And I sold my first Mooney through the same dealer. I think that's the way to go. When  it becomes time to sell the Encore my plan is to take it down to All American and let them handle it.

 

I do a lot of things myself. But selling cars and airplanes it not one of those things. I just don't want to deal with buyers and negotiations. 

Larry

[Aerodon]

18 hours ago, EricJ said:

A mechanic can't ground your airplane, so if it was fit to fly there, it ought to be fit to fly back unless they break something, which is something I'd worry about more.

I have no plans to sell my airplane, but if/when I do, this will be where I may have a problem.   It is totally fair for somebody to want an independent inspector to evaluate the airplane, but given experiences (and numerous threads here), it is demonstrably highly risky to let somebody you don't know touch your airplane.   I'd want to be there looking over their shoulder the whole time, which wouldn't be a good thing for an independent inspection.    This may be my forever airplane just because of this. 

It's not about whether the mechanic can ground the plane, if something is found that is no longer airworthy, I would ground the plane.   Ignorance is bliss, but once something is discovered, the owner has an obligation to fix before further flight, I would just like to deal with it at one of the local airports. 

Aerodon

[hubcap]

56 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

It was until some jack leg idiot got ahold of it during his PPI, and the deal falls through leaving you to try to fix the things they broke like your plastic interior panels etc.

That is why you have a contract.

The world isn't perfect, but if you are dealing with honest people, there should not be a problem. If you're not honest, I don't want to deal with you anyway.

[GeeBee]

I have sold and bought more airplanes than I have fingers and toes. First rule:

Show me the money !

 Selling or buying personally, I set up an escrow account with a title company. The sales contracts require a deposit within 3 days of signing. It requires the money minimum 5 figures to be wired in. (That keeps the illicit funds, like drug money out of the deal). Second part is deliver the airplane for the PPI. Failure to pay the shop, Seller takes the money. Failure to complete the deal all costs involved are liquidated damages (like the airline tickets, fuel etc) PPI punch list is negotiable but liquidated costs are not (that keeps the punch list down). We close 7 days after PPI completed with verified funds wired in to the escrow and then released.

In the case of my Ovation I set up an escrow account with AIC and had 10% of my planned purchase in the account. I wrote the deal up as I described. The pre-purchase was 400 miles away, but the owner had the confidence because he could pick up the phone and verify the funds. As soon as the PPI was finished I wired in the full purchase amount to the escrow and notified the seller of the same. This gave him confidence the punch list was negotiated in good faith. We closed the deal. He thanked me for a well and properly executed deal, which considering he owned 6 Chevrolet dealerships I took as high praise.

I sold my previous airplane the same way. You get all kinds of BS'ers calling until you say, "Wire in the money and we have a deal."

One time I was buying a King Air 200 for my boss from Stevens Aviation. They were bored, but courteous as I inspected the airplane. I made them an offer which they brushed off. Then I pulled out a cashiers check from a major bank for 500K. We made the deal.

It is not difficult but you are not going to get people to perform without

Show me the money !

 

[Sue Bon]

2 hours ago, hubcap said:

When I bought Myrtle,

I just love that your plane is called Myrtle! 

[A64Pilot]

43 minutes ago, hubcap said:

That is why you have a contract.

The world isn't perfect, but if you are dealing with honest people, there should not be a problem. If you're not honest, I don't want to deal with you anyway.

Contracts aren’t worth the paper they are written on, because you can sue, what’s that going to cost you?  Then good look being rich airplane owner trying to sue some poor mechanic, then it’s your word against his and he’s a Federally licensed mechanic, what are your “bonafides”? So you hire a pro, more money.

Then how long does this take? months, possibly years? 

Your last statement is the one that’s valid, but sometimes you get bit and they aren’t honest.

In my case I’m well known in S Ga aviation, I knew the sellers IA well etc., I’m sure he vouched for me, and that likely had a lot to do with the handshake deal.

‘So far as getting a Broker to sell it for you, that’s what I did with our boat, because I had zero tolerance for shoppers that just want to go for a free sail and looking at boats is a weekend entertainment for them, most can’t afford one and have no real intent to buy one, but shopping during the weekend they get to live the dream that they could