carusoam Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 2 hours ago, A64Pilot said: People come on here saying I don’t have my license yet but I want to buy a Mooney and we all jump up and tell them too. ‘We shouldn’t. You didn’t make a comment when I thoughtfully penned…. ‘The normal progression’ a few posts up. i didn’t even earn a single like for the effort I put in. copied here for easy reading… Normal progression… 1) Trainer towards 100hrs… 2) Four cylinder Mooney… for a few 100 more hours… 3) Turbo Mooney… the flight levels take on a whole new level of preparation… 4) Super high performance Mooney (around 300 hp) 5) Combine 3&4… get Acclaim! (End Goal) It isn’t gear up landings I’m concerned with… it’s loss of life early in one’s ownership experience that are disheartening… Some people take the training more seriously and use check lists and do WnB calculations… long after their training days have faded… Others don’t hang out in an online type club… But, hazing a new guy with dreams… isn’t exactly the way to motivate them to do things that are good for them… Some people have Air Force budgets… and train religiously. Others are more budget and time constrained… you get one post to get to know somebody, and convey your concerns… If you lead with ‘flying is expensive and kills you…’. and give examples… because you can…. The reader will just go somewhere else to find what he is looking for. Of course… complaining about what other MSers say… makes us all look like we have no idea what we are saying… We can sugar coat things and say air force pilots train in turbine planes… with no prior experience. Or point out all of the successful people that have trained in their Long Bodies… The youngest person that flew solo around the world… did it in his dad’s Ovation…. Not too many years ago… Mike’s picture of the kid and a race car that learned to fly in a high performance long body Mooney is real…! The goofiest GU occurrence around here was an experienced MSer with an instructor on board who both got distracted… GUs aren’t a new guy with too much airplane… GUs are an ordinary person that didn’t successfully complete one of three standard gumps checks… What’s your suggestion to this time honored challenge…? Know that you have to keep the reader involved… to ever get to the discussion on distraction and how it works… PP thoughts only, not a social psychologist… Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
sleeper-319 Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 I’d give a little more critical thought to experimentals. For what you’re after, something like an RV7 could be an excellent option. Similar (if not better) performance and efficiency than an M20C/E, and while acquisition costs may be higher, operational costs will almost certainly be lower. If you have a local EAA chapter that’s active, go hang out there and start talking with some people before you decide “hard no” on the more mainstream experimentals. Quote
Hank Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 2 hours ago, sleeper-319 said: I’d give a little more critical thought to experimentals. For what you’re after, something like an RV7 could be an excellent option. Similar (if not better) performance and efficiency than an M20C/E, and while acquisition costs may be higher, operational costs will almost certainly be lower. If you have a local EAA chapter that’s active, go hang out there and start talking with some people before you decide “hard no” on the more mainstream experimentals. Just no back seat, so never more than two people. Also limited baggage area. It's surprising how much I've packed into my C! Quote
Schllc Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 12 hours ago, A64Pilot said: People come on here saying I don’t have my license yet but I want to buy a Mooney and we all jump up and tell them too. ‘We shouldn’t. To begin with they don’t even know really what they want, anymore than a 15 yr old knows what kind of car is right for them, hint most want a Vette or Porsche, but unlikely they are the right car for a 16 yr old who just got their license. I don’t think comparing an adult purchasing an airplane to an adolescent buying his first car is a particularly good analogy, nor is it helpful to the OPP. Plenty of people successfully start out in their forever plane. I have a friend who bought a baron 35 years ago to get his ppl, and that is the only plane he has ever flown. It obviously isn’t the most common route, but I would submit that for the cost and age of the prospective pilot pool, this just isn’t an option for the majority of them. I don’t see how training in the platform you intend to fly from day one is a bad decision. More expensive, yep, takes longer, probably. Less safe, I can’t see how. A mooney does not have to be flown at full speed and in many ways it’s much easier to control than a trainer. You may be of the opinion that the only way is to work your way up through multiple planes, but that doesn’t make it the only correct way. You only live once and if you’re like me in their 40’s when you decide to go for it, why wait? A (wo)man has got to know their limitations. Mikes student got his ppl in an acclaim! I’m jealous! I wanted an acclaim first too but I listened to all the bs hangar talk about turbos and let myself get talked out, and got the ovation instead. Quote
Echo Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 Do wait, or buy a Cherokee 180 and Get some time in a simple robust low wing plane. Learn weather. Learn radio. Learn navigation. Learn maintenance. Learn what you want in a panel. At 100 hours if you still like flying buy your Mooney. An E model is a great four place plane if you have kids. A great three person plane if your not fatties. Plane ownership is great if you have a mission and the plane fits it. Gear ups don't kill anything but bank accounts. Weather kills. Poor maintenance and poor attention do too. You don't have to be instrument rated to own a Mooney, but it doesn't hurt. 1 Quote
Echo Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 And never, I repeat NEVER buy a wood wing Mooney. Quote
Echo Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 If you can afford a J with split removable back seats, BUY one. Quote
carusoam Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Echo said: And never, I repeat NEVER buy a wood wing Mooney. Unless you are familiar with a good wood shop near by…. There are plenty of M20A and Mite owners around here. You might not see them very often… Best regards, -a- Quote
Hank Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Echo said: Do wait, or buy a Cherokee 180 and Get some time in a simple robust low wing plane. Learn weather. Learn radio. Learn navigation. Learn maintenance. Learn what you want in a panel. At 100 hours if you still like flying buy your Mooney. An E model is a great four place plane if you have kids. A great three person plane if your not fatties. Plane ownership is great if you have a mission and the plane fits it. Gear ups don't kill anything but bank accounts. Weather kills. Poor maintenance and poor attention do too. You don't have to be instrument rated to own a Mooney, but it doesn't hurt. Nah. Start training now, buy a good Mooney when you find one; decide then which plane to finish your PPL in. I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook, five weeks after my PPL checkride. Many of us here did the same or similar. You just need to train as hard in your Mooney as you do in the flight school's plane. After three years of VFR flying, I knuckled down and got my Instrument Rating. My Mooney is now much more useful, and less expensive to insure. Good luck with your training, and happy hunting for your Mooney! 2 Quote
Ethan Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 I’m with those discouraging the OP to buy now. What’s the hurry? Learn to fly. Get your instrument rating. Bang around in rentals. Talk to people. You might learn you really like back country flying, or that you want a 182 (most versatile plane ever). Once you buy you’re locked in for awhile and it could be fine, or you could realize you want something bigger, slower, faster, that can land shorter … blah blah blah. There’s so much to learn just getting your head wrapped around the flying, why worry about oil changes and the $10,000 annual inspection you weren’t expecting. 3 Quote
carusoam Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 Often… It is highly recommended to get your IR in the plane you intend to fly long term… Soooo… Get past being new to flying in a rental machine that is built for hamfisted landings…. And goes slower, so those hamfisted landings don’t happen very often, or very hard… Then get the dream Mooney and learn how to fly in it…. Having two different planes in your experience bucket… gives you a wider view about how your plane works… or is supposed to work one day… it won’t be wasted time doing something twice for no reason… If training with a purpose… this is all going on simultaneously… If training is controlled by dollars coming in over the transom… it may take a year or more for the IR to be trained for…. It took me a decade to get to IR training in earnest… Started by not asking the right question… How IR capable does the plane need to be before training for the IR…. One VOR and an Old ADF wasn’t a good answer…. Then I ran into a magnetized steel frame challenge… doing compass turns… Finished training for the IR when I was between plane ownership… in a C172…. Which I could have had trained that much in my M20R instead… PP thoughts only, not a CFI… Best regards, -a- Quote
mkerian10 Posted April 12, 2023 Author Report Posted April 12, 2023 (edited) First of all thanks everyone for your comments. It's awesome to have a community that's both incredibly passionate about this subject and is comfortable disagreeing and seeing out all sides of arguments. I've given it some thought and my current opinion is to finish my PPL, and more than likely get my IR before buying a plane. I wouldn't be opposed to buying a plane for my IR but I'm not super stressed about it. Ultimately once I buy my plane I really won't get much more instruction after that. Spending a bit more time earlier in my aviation life to get more training seems like a very worthwhile investment. While I think it'd be fully possible for me to safely complete my training with my own Mooney I think this is a much safer option in addition to not having many people competent in Mooney's in my area. I think it'd be smart to get Mooney specific training when I do buy one. Other things like buying the best plane I can, avionics etc. are duly noted. I doubt I'll be buying my forever plane any time soon (my forever plane will be a G800 with Camilla Cabello as my flight attendant/wife). Overall I feel like a short body plane better encompasses my mission and I'm sure I'll have plenty of lifestyle changes in the next 5-10-20 years. On 4/8/2023 at 9:27 AM, Austintatious said: -Finding a good mechanic is definitely a real issue... it has been the single most awful part for me becoming an aircraft owner. I wont get into it in depth here, but please figure out if you even have any around you before you dive in... If you cant find a mechanic around you that can work on the aircraft, it can be a pain. Get a list going and have as many as you can on it. Saavy may even be able to help on that front. All of this is fantastic advice but wanted to highlight this as it's one of my particular worries. I'll be sure to get a strong idea of all mechanics available to me. One question I have is how do you deal with mechanics when they aren't in your city? If you have an unexpected issue when your nearest mechanic is a few hours away how does this work? On 4/8/2023 at 4:34 PM, MikeOH said: 4) Don't focus too much on the purchase price; buy what you want and can afford, but the REAL costs are those of ownership, NOT acquisition. I've owned my 1970 M20F for a little over five years and fly 65-85 hours/year (I thought I'd fly over 100/year; not that uncommon to overestimate) and it has run between $13K to $18K per year, all in (southern California, hangar cost $350/month). Make certain you can swing those costs on top of any payments for the plane itself (if you finance). I do some of my own work under an A&Ps supervision and probably save a couple thou a year. Some will tell you I'm spending way more than I should and could, but think about this: fuel cost is around $5K of that, hangar is another $4K, oil changes/databases/property tax $1K. So, the 'rest' of the costs are $3K to $8K including annual, repairs, and upgrades. I think this is a fantastic point that I "knew" but didn't really appreciate. Ultimately the purchase price is daunting but just the beginning. Which truthfully just makes me want to buy a better plane. Buy overall I feel the point to take away from this is buying a solid, forward seeing, safe plane is more important than getting the best deal on the block. On 4/8/2023 at 6:20 PM, McMooney said: honestly, this is your second girlfriend. Maintenance, DO, find someone you trust and preferably, base your plane on the same field. Really, due to the rules, they'll most likely see your girl more often than you. learn how to do the simple stuff, oil changes, tires, brakes, plugs, batteries, lights etc... 1 it saves you money 2 it saves on downtime 3 why actually own it if you aren't willing to get a little dirty. don't be scared, they are really simple machines. I'm supposed to have a first girlfriend? I'm again finding a bit more stuff about maintenance and mechanics. I have friends that are aircraft mechanics and I'm sure they'd be delighted to help where they can. But they're armed forces mechanics working on jet engines so I'm not sure exactly how much help they'd be. On 4/9/2023 at 11:34 AM, carusoam said: 2) I lived in the middle of nowhere… I wanted to go somewhere else… check! This is why we have Mooneys. 3) Buying a good plane, not the cheapest plane… keeps critical fixes limited to pre-planned annual activities…. But always be prepared for the surprise… engine outs can and will happen… I bought the cheapest M20C, and have been sharing war stories about it for a decade… but, it got me to where I am today… 4) I got a copy of MSFS in 1983… first flight lesson was a decade later… its fun to fly a Mooney in their sim, and be able to point out where the flaws in their model occur… If I wanted to stay here I'd buy an anchor. Wanted to highlight 3, something I came in believing and am glad to see everyone emphasize this. I've flown the Mooney in MSFS a fair amount of times. Unfortunately have no comparison! 16 hours ago, sleeper-319 said: I’d give a little more critical thought to experimentals. For what you’re after, something like an RV7 could be an excellent option. Similar (if not better) performance and efficiency than an M20C/E, and while acquisition costs may be higher, operational costs will almost certainly be lower. If you have a local EAA chapter that’s active, go hang out there and start talking with some people before you decide “hard no” on the more mainstream experimentals. This is simultaneously the best and worst time to get an experimental. I have no one telling me this is a bad idea, but I have (hopefully) a long life ahead of me. The RV series is particularly interesting but it's not something I'm willing to invest in at this point in my life. Edited April 12, 2023 by mkerian10 1 Quote
RoundTwo Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 Here’s one more point to consider on the topic of buying with training in mind. Once you buy your own plane to train in, any disruption to the flyability, my new word, means you’re not training. This is where I am now. I last flew for instrument training on March 6. I suspended training because I had a contract on a plane and it made no sense to be paying someone else to fly their plane when in a few short weeks I’d have my own to train in. I brought it home on March 20th and on the first flight since getting it home, the charging system took a dump and it hasn’t flown since. Im hoping to shortly get is straightened out, but with access to only one plane, I’ve given up my options. Just something to think about if you’re on a schedule to finish up your training. Quote
A64Pilot Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 53 minutes ago, RoundTwo said: Here’s one more point to consider on the topic of buying with training in mind. Once you buy your own plane to train in, any disruption to the flyability, my new word, means you’re not training. This is where I am now. I last flew for instrument training on March 6. I suspended training because I had a contract on a plane and it made no sense to be paying someone else to fly their plane when in a few short weeks I’d have my own to train in. I brought it home on March 20th and on the first flight since getting it home, the charging system took a dump and it hasn’t flown since. Im hoping to shortly get is straightened out, but with access to only one plane, I’ve given up my options. Just something to think about if you’re on a schedule to finish up your training. This is a very big concern, in order to actually learn you have to train frequently, what makes Military training so good is that it’s your job, 24 / 7. You fly everyday usually. Flying infrequently it’s tough to learn anything, plus your training money can quickly evaporate in maintenance. With rentals, you can at least plan expenses ‘Once you buy your “new” airplane very often they have significant issues to be worked through, most of these are antiques after all and very often the normal progression before it’s sold is it flies less and less and small issues accumulate over time. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 Rich mentioned something yesterday… Things you notice when you are ‘one with your plane’…. the more you know about your plane… the more you will notice when it does something a bit funky… Transition Training is a great way to get started down the right road… Mooney Specific training continues… available four times each year, known as the MAPA PPP…. You learn more about its mechanical innards by participating in its annual maintenance… Getting service while on the road…. A cell phone and MS can work some magic… There is also a service called Savvy that is worth looking into… Getting that first year out of the way is critical… A problem free first year is magical… A stuck valve during transition training leaves you a bit uneasy about what the rest of the year is going to bring… If you know what you are doing… you buy your last plane first… If you are young and short on dough… it is really hard to buy your last plane first. If you pay for your girl friend’s rent… you will know what it is like rent a hangar for your plane… Your plane will never be jealous of the money (or time) you spend on your girl friend… Around here… some people have purchased an M20C early in life… and updated it into a forever-plane over time… Sometimes plane ownership fits in between other stages of life… Get plane before… getting a dog getting married getting a house having a child before getting day care bills before getting college bills before retiring before getting that hangar with an attached house before you turn 80 Holding a plane through all of these bumps in the financial road is an interesting challenge. There will always be new jobs, raises and promotions, and recessions and market crashes… The sun always comes up the next day… Some people have a five year plan… Some Mooniacs financial plans may be longer than five years… How far out can you see your future? Best regards, -a- Quote
Pinecone Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 The thoughts about availability are very on point. One I had not considered, but a big thing, especially for your Private. My thoughts on not training in your plane, especially in a Mooney, is at the beginning you are going to make a lot of bad landings. I would not want to put those stresses on my personal airplane. Not that all my landings are great. By the time you get your Private, most of your landings will be OK. Depending on the panel you would get, doing your instrument can be done perfectly well in your plane. I am old school, in that I think initial instrument training should be with a 6 pack, to learn to scan, where you have to scan. And without all the bells and whistles to learn to make a mental picture of what is going on and where you are in relation to the approach, airport, and runway. But, you don't need to do your entire Instrument Rating in 6 pack. There are a couple of ways to deal with issues when your mechanic is not at your field. Obviously, if it is not something major, you fly it to your mechanic. Other options are, to have your mechanic fly to you to get it flyable, then move it to their shop. Or, have the mechanic on your field do what is needed, either the entire job or just enough to be able to fly it to your mechanic. I have the best of both worlds. I have a great Mooney mechanic not too far away. And a very good shop, with a good bit of Mooney experience, on the field. Then, you could always move so you are based at the field with a great Mooney mechanic. Quote
carusoam Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 Often around here… You will probably see a ride share request between MSers going to and from distant maintenance shops… Depending on how maintenance hungry your bird is… It may be a good idea… to offer a ride… before you need one… Join a local flying group as well… there is so much you can learn about safely navigating your local area and what is on the mind of pilots in your tri-state area… Best regards, -a- Quote
hubcap Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 There are plenty of guys who will recommend to buy a Mooney to do your training in...I am not one of those guys. I agree with @Pinecone to get your PPL before buying, but I would also recommend getting your instrument rating as well before purchasing an airplane. There is no shortage of stories of guys who bought their plane and then did all their training in it, but I suspect there are plenty of stories that we don't hear about guys doing the same thing with poor results. I am glad I did not subject my Mooney to my training....just the 10 hours mandated by my insurance company. Mooney's are high performance aircraft. I refuse to trust my high performance aircraft to a low performance pilot. 1 Quote
wombat Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 As a CFI, I also recommend against doing PPL training in a Mooney. This is a recommendation, not a rule. One of the most important aspects of teaching is the student's motivation and if a student is really motivated by training in *their* plane, if it's a Mooney or a 152, that motivation might be a larger factor than the reasons I have for recommending against it. My goals are for the student to be safe, and if we have accomplished that, I want them to gain knowledge and skill, and have a positive experience. The process of taking someone through their PPL I think of just keeping the student on the edge of being overloaded at all times, and as the CFI I pick up the slack for them. For the first flight I'll make all the radio calls. But as they can keep up with the plane I'll ask them to start making the radio calls. The faster we can get them to keep up with the plane and do all of the necessary things (aircraft control, engine and system management, communications, maintaining situational awareness, etc) the sooner we can get them solo in the plane, and the sooner we can get them capable of meeting the airmen certification standards. Everything else is just a distraction that slows down the learning process. The simpler you can keep things in the plane during this time the faster they'll progress. In a 182 it will take a student more hours to solo than in a 172. In a Mooney it will take even longer. The majority of the skills gained in PPL training translate from a 172 to a Mooney with very little additional training. I suspect (But have not done a study, I don't have that many students!) that the amount of flight time or calendar time required to train someone in a 172 and transition them to a Mooney is lower than doing the whole thing in a Mooney. And the Mooney will quite probably be more expensive per hour as well. But if the student has high motivation to fly the Mooney... Well, it's their plane and their money. If I've informed them of what I think the expected outcomes are and they still want to, that's fine with me to fly the Mooney. 1 Quote
Hank Posted April 12, 2023 Report Posted April 12, 2023 2 hours ago, wombat said: The majority of the skills gained in PPL training translate from a 172 to a Mooney with very little additional training. I suspect (But have not done a study, I don't have that many students!) that the amount of flight time or calendar time required to train someone in a 172 and transition them to a Mooney is lower than doing the whole thing in a Mooney. I transitioned pretty easily as a 62-hour Cessna pilot, and was fairly comfortable well before the end of the insurance-mandated 15 hours. Speeds are very similar around the pattern, but the Mooney can of course go faster. 1 Quote
Austintatious Posted April 13, 2023 Report Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/12/2023 at 3:12 AM, mkerian10 said: All of this is fantastic advice but wanted to highlight this as it's one of my particular worries. I'll be sure to get a strong idea of all mechanics available to me. One question I have is how do you deal with mechanics when they aren't in your city? If you have an unexpected issue when your nearest mechanic is a few hours away how does this work? You fly to a mechanic, Uber home. Hope they aren't too far away! Quote
Hank Posted April 13, 2023 Report Posted April 13, 2023 28 minutes ago, Austintatious said: You fly to a mechanic, Uber home. Hope they aren't too far away! I've taken rental cars one way home, and later one way back to get the plane. A 4-hour Uber trip just isn't practical. I hate no longer being able to participate in the annual, but my new IA doesn’t allow it. My wife drives chase to bring me home--my hangar is 20 minutes north, the IA is 30 minutes west, and it's just a short flight. Quote
Pinecone Posted April 13, 2023 Report Posted April 13, 2023 Hmm, get a cheap car. Get it to mechanic's field. Drop off plane, drive home. Drive back, leave car for next time. Maybe put it into Turo to offset the cost. Quote
mkerian10 Posted April 14, 2023 Author Report Posted April 14, 2023 17 hours ago, Austintatious said: You fly to a mechanic, Uber home. Hope they aren't too far away! What if my plane isn't flight-capable? How often does that happen? I think that's the crux of my question Quote
ArtVandelay Posted April 14, 2023 Report Posted April 14, 2023 What if my plane isn't flight-capable? How often does that happen? I think that's the crux of my questionUnless you’re an AP or have years of experience, no way should you buy a plane not airworthy, especially away from home. Quote
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