Pilot job flying a Mooney.

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I’m going to guess that a large portion of that was non-business travel.  I know goys who tried to get to 100 but never made it.

Nope, most was work travel.

Maybe 5 for non-business

[jlunseth]

I have an entirely different perspective. Being near retirement and over the age to stop flying for the airlines, a job like that might be fun if the equipment is decent and it’s not a rat race. Would be better than sitting around doing nothing. And it would be flying with someone else paying the bills for a change. Nothing better than being in the air, well, hardly anything.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I have an entirely different perspective. Being near retirement and over the age to stop flying for the airlines, a job like that might be fun if the equipment is decent and it’s not a rat race. Would be better than sitting around doing nothing. And it would be flying with someone else paying the bills for a change. Nothing better than being in the air, well, hardly anything.

Actually, I agree with that.  As something to do, when you don't need the income, it would great.  If it was local, I might even consider it.  But to have to have another place to live and such, not such a good deal.

But that is because I (and you probably when retire) have enough income, you could do the job for no pay at all and still live OK

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Nope, most was work travel.

Maybe 5 for non-business

That’s impressive.  I can’t think of a business that would have customers in 150 countries.

[jlunseth]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But that is because I (and you probably when retire) have enough income, you could do the job for no pay at all and still live OK

I confess. But it would still be a fun thing to do other than sitting around on the ground. Come to think of it, it might be a great way to keep hours up and stay insurable. And, I would get to fly a Mooney. Since they are G1000’s, probably a model I have not flown yet!

[kortopates]

I am pretty sure I had the best possible temporary job flying Mooney's back in 2016, flying for Mooney International. Its was summer job for 3 months flying China. The pay was substantially better than the survey work listed here and also came with all expenses paid for both myself and my wife. Of course they were looking for much more experiences rather than someone needing to build hours.

At the time I was recently retired from my career engineering job, which made it possible, with the only complication that I had transitioned to being a full time instructor with a couple students as well as working for Savvy Aviation. Luckily I was able to continue working for Savvy while in China. I also delayed my start date a short time to finish up an IR student with the new ACS (the day after it became effective) just before heading to China.

My wife is a college professor and has the summers off so she was excited to join me for the first 6 of my 12 weeks there and started studying Chinese as soon as we knew we were going. We were both excited to be able to go live in China and travel extensively for 3 months. The job turned out to quite different than it had been billed; due to poor communications between the Chinese staff and the US folks. But it turned out to be even better than billed.

I was told the main need was to give demo rides to VIP's in China, mostly government officials and sales related flights and to mentor their two young commercial pilots. As it turned out, my job was 90%+ instructing their "Chief Pilot", a relatively new commercial pilot with little Mooney experience and only 10% or so giving demo/advertising rides. But in the latter role I got to meet the US Ambassador, many other officials and see Veronica several times (the owner of the Meijing Group that bought Mooney). Veronica is an amazing young Chinese billionaire.

All the flying was in a new air conditioned Acclaim and the AC turned out to be vital in the hot humid Chinese summer weather. The other big perk was my duty days turned were only Tuesday and Thursdays which gave me literally 4 day weekends every weekend for 12 weeks to travel somewhere in China. Which is exactly what my wife and I did - every weekend. It took a couple weekends stretching our legs before management was comfortable enough to let us travel unrestricted because of their concern for us not being able to speak or read Chinese. But hiring a guide in the early trips and use of Google made all of that very possible and after a couple of not too far away trips we where going everywhere by plane or train.  Not only did we get the 4 day weekends but out of our 12 weeks we also got two full weeks of vacation. First the second or third week there, the entire company (about 60 people) shutdown for vacation. They all went to Japan for a company paid vacation while my wife and I went to southern China for a week on a river cruise. Later they took my Mooney down to paint new Chinese registration marks on it, and I got another week vacation during the painting and curing process. When the 12 weeks were up they wanted me to stay longer but I had other commitments and offered to come back for a big airshow in couple months, as well as come back next summer. But by then I had trained myself out of the job since my Chief Pilot was now ready to get his CFI. With a fresh CFI cert he no longer really needed me. 

In the end I flew far fewer hours than the number of hours I fly here at home as a CFI. Unfortunately the Chinese government and military where an obstacle to flying like none other and would decide to close our airspace last minute. As an example, after any period of bad weather they would close the airspace to conduct training exercises grounding us on a perfect flying day which was frustrating. The military is China's biggest obstacle to the growth of GA in China. Even though the Chinese government is fully supportive of GA, the government has no say over the military till apparently Premier Xi's level. But it was an amazing experience and all the people that I worked closely with, about a dozen including the maintenance staff, became family. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by kortopates

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

That’s impressive.  I can’t think of a business that would have customers in 150 countries.

168 countries.  Used to be 169.

Obviously I did not get to all of them.  

[Rjfanjet]

Yes, flying job salaries have changed substantially the last 30 years. When I was hired as a newly minted CFI back in 1996 I was making $7.50 a flight hour. I had that job for 18 months, instructing full time and gaining enough flight time to get my ATP at All ATP's back when they actually offered that certificate. Did it in a Seminole.

My next job was a 135 job in a Baron that paid $20 a flight hour and $15 an hour sitting standby. I thought I was set making $20000 a year!

Then I went to the Regionals. Made $12000 my first year, wondering why I made the swap to the airlines! With the pilot shortage, my hourly pay almost doubled to keep pilots at the regionals. We have check airmen that are now making more than Southwest captains.

Every job has been what you make of it. People that aren't happy at the airlines are the ones who aren't happy with life in general, I've noticed. If I had multiple alimony payments, House payments, boat\plane payments, and commuted to work, I'd be unhappy also.

Just observations of a regional pilot who's been flying for pay for the last 27 years..

[carusoam]

Thanks for sharing the dollar values RJF!

Those first few years are the tough ones…

And the fed reserve is concerned about wage inflation….

We should send these details to J Powell…. There hasn’t been enough wage inflation for some people….  

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, Rjfanjet said:

Every job has been what you make of it. People that aren't happy at the airlines are the ones who aren't happy with life in general, I've noticed.

That is a seriously gross generalization and over simplification.

MANY people are very happy with life in general and their career and are not airline pilots.

[cliffy]

Lets see?   

First flying job- $750/month and the mechanic on the airplane to boot. Did all the maintenance on the PA-31-310

There were no Regionals then Just a few small airlines with crap equipment

Got my ATP back then in the same Navajo at 1200 hrs. No required schooling just practice for the practical test and pass the written!

Hardest career job?  Charter on 20 series LearJets. 30 min call out day and night 

Hardest corporate job? Long haul overwater international Pt 25 private owner B727. We'd be gone 12-15 weeks at a time. 1 hr on call the entire time. 

Best job for me? Check Airman B737 and B757  I enjoyed the instructing in 121 airline environments

Actually enjoyed my 5 years as a line A&P at Continental LAX back in the 60s. We had a good time then.

In some ways it is all interesting and at the same time sobering when you decide where you are at is not where you want to be. 

5 airlines, 7 corporations all of which are dead except for the 121 I retired from 16 years ago.  

Tomato- tomahto? To each his own.

I enjoyed the airline flying more than corp because they couldn't call you on days off. You had a set schedule.

Other guys I knew stayed charter all their career. Why? I have no idea. 

When you look out on any airline terminal ramp there isn't any job out there you see being done that I haven't done including dumping the toilets after every flight. There isn't any corporate job that I haven't done at some time in my career.

No intention of going back although I would like to fly a 727 around the pattern one more time.

For now- my Mooney suffices quite well. 

[rbp]

when I flew scenic glider rides, I got $18/hour, but that only counted for the length of the flight, which was exactly one hour. i didn’t get paid for training, getting the glider in/out of the hangar, preflight, wx brief, boarding/briefing, etc. if I only had one flight that day, I still had to drive to/from the airport. In reality, it was about $9/hour. 

[EricJ]

19 hours ago, rbp said:

when I flew scenic glider rides, I got $18/hour, but that only counted for the length of the flight, which was exactly one hour. i didn’t get paid for training, getting the glider in/out of the hangar, preflight, wx brief, boarding/briefing, etc. if I only had one flight that day, I still had to drive to/from the airport. In reality, it was about $9/hour. 

I taught as a Prof. at a private engineering college for a little while.   Because I hadn't taught the course before it was a lot of work generating course material, etc., and then the next session they gave me a different course to teach and I had to do it all again.    It worked out to about $5/hour.   So you were doing well!

 

[donkaye]

What interesting stories and life experiences many of you have had!  

I have found in life you make your own breaks, with help from fortuitous circumstances, and to get as far as you have the drive to make your dreams come true.  Slightly past the September of my years, it's easier to look back with perspective on decisions made earlier in life.

Initially I didn't consciously realize I was NOT a company person.  It took me nine years of working for companies to get that I didn't belong in that environment.  Starting with nothing, however, they did allow me to acquired the capital needed to break out on my own.  With time on my side, location, inflation, love of what I was doing, and some amount of luck combined to give me the opportunity to be doing what I have been doing for the past 30 years--devoting my time to Aviation in the way I want to do it.  And in 1990 I didn't even know that would be the way I wanted to spend the last half of my life.  The TLS on the November 1990 cover of AOPA magazine and December 1990 cover of Flying changed my life (I still have those issues).  Anyway, I went on to get my instrument rating in 1992, my CFI and CFII and all the Ground Instructor Ratings in 1994, the Single Engine ATP in my airplane in 1995, and finally the ATP Multiengine and MEI in 1999. When one of my earlier Oviation students bought his CJ1, I got typed with my CE-525S Rating in 2000, for me the most difficult rating because of the short duration "fire hose" type training at Flight Safety.

While jets are fun to fly, other than the additional capability they give you to fly higher, faster, and in more challenging weather, our Mooneys provide as much of a great experience in their own way.

I bought my airplane in 1992.  I became friends with the Mooney salesman in California and in short order I was helping fly new airplanes around the country, as the demonstrators were traded among Mooney Salesman.  While I didn't make any money doing that, the experience gained from flying in so many conditions was invaluable as I started my teaching career in 1994 and could relate those experiences to my students.

In 1996 the Mooney Salesman in California introduced me to the lead singer of a famous rock band.  I was fortunate enough to be invited on 4 of their tours all over the country where we took the Ovation, and I continued instructing him.  Eventually he got his Instrument, Commercial, CFI, and CFII with me and went on to teach a couple of Mooney PPP.  Little did his students, who were quite a bit older, know they had a famous rock star teaching them.  Well, they might have when one time he showed up in Santa Maria in the Citation and another time in Kerrville for a Homecoming.

On short notice in 2008,  I got a call from Mooney that they needed an instructor for a week in Australia for the Down Under Tour.  They wanted me to transition an experienced pilot to the Acclaim during the Tour.  What an outstanding week that was!   It was then that I met my good friend Victor, who owns a J and participates on this list.

The time with most of the students I've had has been enriching to me and I hope informative to them.  I've been told I should write a book with the many experiences I have to share.  Maybe, sometime.

For now there is nothing I'd rather be doing than teaching in the best single engine piston plane in the Aviation fleet.

 

 

[T. Peterson]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:03 PM, Hank said:

Have you checked starting salaries at regionals? It's less than this Mooney-flying job . . . . .

But if you love aviation you do what it takes. After a 10 year Marine Corps career flying helicopters I took a 135 job with Kalitta , flying turbine Beech-18’s and 20 series Lear Jets. Starting salary was 250.00 a week. I bumped it to 300 a week by keeping up the Company Jepps charts. I have hours of experience pulling and inserting those maddening inserts. It was miserable, but there was a goal. Now, after almost 25 years at Spirit Airlines, was it worth it? You bet!

 If dreams were easy, they wouldn’t be worth much.

[cliffy]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:09 PM, donkaye said:

the most difficult rating because of the short duration "fire hose" type training at Flight Safety.

Don- consider yourself lucky!  The 525 is small and simple for fire hose school.

If someone 50 years ago would have told me I do the "fire hose training" 6 times on 

big iron I would have called them crazy :-)

There has been a progression of training philosophy in aviation since the advent of the 707-727era It started with the old radial engine airliners and carried over. Back then with Flight Engineers you had to learn to practically build the airplane. You knew the values and tolerances of every pressure and temp switch in the airplane.  Say for instance 310C for the ACM over temp trip light on a 727 (if 50 year old memory serves me correctly)  You had to know all the little bits and parts. REAL fire hose stuff in a few weeks. ( I even flew with a guy that knew how many rivets were around the passenger windows in a 727. I learned a lot form that guy)

As we moved to say the 757 things went from that to a lot of "if its green its OK if its red you got a problem. Lots fewer "numbers" to remember for the test

Now down to today's training ( maybe Airbus 320) it seems mostly "if its red or green and read the screen"  A lot less detailed on systems than it was. 

On the other hand navigation has gone from simple ILS, VOR, ADF to a plethora of approaches with in aircraft nav systems with buttonology that defies easy comprehension.  

In the 757 you lost most of the systems numbers but you gained the FMC which was the death knell for many old time 727 drivers.  It was called the widow maker at one airline. We just traded one complexity for another :-)

We gained industry safety by a tremendous margin with the adoption of jet engines. Frankly, the aviation world was transformed by jets. We would have carnage every week if we still had radial piston engines. Jet engine reliability and power has given us the safety record we have today. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

We gained industry safety by a tremendous margin with the adoption of jet engines. Frankly, the aviation world was transformed by jets. We would have carnage every week if we still had radial piston engines. Jet engine reliability and power has given us the safety record we have today. 

At A&P school we had a Wright R-3350 with the Power Recovery Turbines.   It was an example of the pinnacle of radial engine technology, and a massive complex beast with a zillion moving parts and systems and adjustments.   We also had quite a few different examples of turbojets, turbofans, and turboshaft engines.  Every time I looked at that radial it was no mystery at all why something with essentially one moving part replaced it.  Turbines were definitely a paradigm shift in the right direction.

[Will.iam]

My main complaint with being a professional in the airline industry which people from other professions find shocking as they do not have this issue is that if you switch from one flying company to another company with very few exceptions, you start at beginner pay all over again no matter your experience. It forces you to stay at one company even if years later management changes for the worse when the original founders retire (spirit and southwest airlines are two that cone to mind) because you don’t want to start over in pay. Or worse you are unlucky enough to work for an airline that goes under (ATA, evergreen, eastern) and back to the bottom. In other industries if you are good at what you do other companies will make offers of increased salaries if you will come work for them. which makes bargaining for salary increases easier. I get seniority is about the fairest a union group has to equality among its members I just wished the airline unions could get to a universal years of experience that would be recognized like other professions so that if your company went under or closed down your base you could goto another company without starting over in pay at least. It’s a financial roller coster few can afford to stomach willingly and all are devastating to your finale retirement total.
I don’t know of any other career that does this.