FAA Hypoxia Training

[Controller92]

Does anybody know anything about the hypoxia training (PROTE) that the FAA offers in Oklahoma City? The website has all the information about it but when you call the number it gives you a COVID message and a closed voicemail. Is the FAA ever bringing this training back or is it shelved for good and COVID is their excuse?

Edited November 9, 2022 by Controller92
Typographical Error Correction

[Controller92]

From what I can find, the portable altitude chamber is still running but the FAA has almost no information on it and the facility in OK City is possibly closed for COVID reasons. There is so little information out there it’s not even funny. 

 

[Marc_B]

I did a PROTE event last year that was hosted at one of the flight schools down at Metro (KBJC). It was free, took about 20 min start to finish and was just a 5 min trip in the portable chamber with 27,000ft simulated oxygen. It was basically to expose you to hypoxia and see what type of symptoms and pulse ox at 1/2/3/4/5 minute marks. I found out about this through the Colorado Pilot’s Association, not the FAA. So they’re still up and running.  Perhaps it just takes a site to request and host it?? Maybe send an email to CPA and see if they know who to contact.

I would love to take the FAA aeromedical physiology class in OKC. It sounds move involved and covers more information than just a hypoxia chamber. So if you find out more, post up! It’s on my aviation bucket list. 

[Ibra]

On the practical aspect, if you can’t get an appointment for the hypoxia chamber, I think it’s worth going up with someone else who can fly aircraft on oxygen on your behalf (instructor? or another pilot?), remove your own O2 in 16kft-24kft band for X minutes and fly by hand or autopilot down to 8kft 

I think this should give a better idea of personal symptoms and limitations? I am still waiting for an excuse or opportunity to go and try in Oklahoma but it’s a long way from France 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ibra

[kortopates]

I hosted a PROTE event a couple years ago for our San Diego pilots and looking at doing another. We had them in town for about 4 days and put a couple hundred pilots through it. It’s good training. They travel around the country doing this. If you search on SPANS you may be able to find one not too far away.

We had several aeromedical lectures too provided by the CAMI staff that were excellent. But that is optional when PROTE events are set up and scheduling makes it much more complicated than just doing the PROTE ride.


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[N201MKTurbo]

I was scheduled for a ride in the Altitude Chamber at Mesa Gateway airport. It used to belong to the Air Force. I looked that thing over and I looked at the old guy running it and I tapped out. 

There are no automatic controls. There is no safety E-Stop in the chamber. There is no backup operator. If you are in there and the vacuum pumps are running and the operator had a heart attack, everybody in the chamber would die.

[kortopates]

From what I can find, the portable altitude chamber is still running but the FAA has almost no information on it and the facility in OK City is possibly closed for COVID reasons. There is so little information out there it’s not even funny. 
 

in all of three seconds i found the next on Nov 16 in Smithfield, NC

https://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=116640&caller=/SPANS/events/EventList.aspx

just search events for “PROTE”
won’t show more than a month or two out though.


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[kortopates]

I was scheduled for a ride in the Altitude Chamber at Mesa Gateway airport. It used to belong to the Air Force. I looked that thing over and I looked at the old guy running it and I tapped out. 
There are no automatic controls. There is no safety E-Stop in the chamber. There is no backup operator. If you are in there and the vacuum pumps are running and the operator had a heart attack, everybody in the chamber would die.

i’ve ridden in their chamber and it was manned with no less than a staff of 5 or 6 people. Multiple people outside observing and manning the controls and multiple people inside observing and making sure anyone needing O2 got it.
Heck, i wanted to go longer after being one of the last remaining ones without putting the O2 mask on but they would not stand for it - i was of course hypoxic!
plus i believe there was a emergency button inside to allow a quick release- but I am not sure about that.


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[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, kortopates said:

i’ve ridden in their chamber and it was manned with no less than a staff of 5 or 6 people. Multiple people outside observing and manning the controls and multiple people inside observing and making sure anyone needing O2 got it.
Heck, i wanted to go longer after being one of the last remaining ones without putting the O2 mask on but they would not stand for it - i was of course hypoxic!
plus i believe there was a emergency button inside to allow a quick release- but I am not sure about that.


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If that was the case when I was there, it wouldn't have been a problem, but it wasn't.

[Marc_B]

When I did the PROTE at BJC there was an attendant on oxygen inside the enclosure with us, 5 pilots going though the chamber, a person on a microphone outside asking questions and running the equipment and about 3 people standing around watching.  We weren't locked inside, we had demand oxygen masks in our laps, and we were monitoring our pulse ox the entire time.  Instruction was at 5 minutes everyone put on masks OR sooner if you were at 60% or lower, had more then 3 symptoms of hypoxia, or if one of the instructors told you to put on mask.

@kortopates They said the idea behind brief time and not below 60% was to avoid hypoxia amnesia where you don't remember your experience.  The instructor outside asked everyone a question at some point (i.e. what are the forces of flight, what is a typical glide slope angle, etc.) and then instructed you to write a 3 and circle it.  Then on the debrief they asked what number you had circled and do you remember what that represents?  One guy was clueless and honestly couldn't remember being asked a question.  We had a sheet with crossword puzzle, math problems, and a maze to do "in your free time" but everyone had to write down their symptoms every min on the min (1/2/3/4/5).  they had write ins as well as typical symptoms (color saturation, nausea, headache, tingling, air hunger, tired/fatigue, etc.)

Never once did I feel the process was dangerous or unsafe.  On the contrary, my experience was very well run.  At 5 minutes I was at 70%, felt a little overtired (just finished a night shift) type feeling/dull, felt a slight need to take deeper breaths, and some slight tingling.  So if I feel dull and overtired that's my cue to consider oxygen and check my pulse ox.

Highly recommend all pilots do this, even the normally aspirated guys can get high enough to have problems!  Plus it's good to know your hypoxia symptoms in case there may be something else at play (i.e. CO).  CO may show normal pulse ox reading...so if it doesn't add up, maybe head down.

[kortopates]

If that was the case when I was there, it wouldn't have been a problem, but it wasn't.

Next time i go I’ll remember to invite you if i can - we don’t usually fill it up when we get a group together.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

PROTE is also featured at Sun n Fun and Oshkosh every year.   I’ve been through the course (20 minutes) twice in recent years, each time taking along a “newbie” or two who haven’t been exposed to the hypoxia training.  Great use of half an hour.  Advise it for anyone flying on O2 or in pressurized planes. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Next time i go I’ll remember to invite you if i can - we don’t usually fill it up when we get a group together.


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Sounds good, its right down the street.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Marc_B said:

When I did the PROTE at BJC there was an attendant on oxygen inside the enclosure with us, 5 pilots going though the chamber, a person on a microphone outside asking questions and running the equipment and about 3 people standing around watching.  We weren't locked inside, we had demand oxygen masks in our laps, and we were monitoring our pulse ox the entire time.  Instruction was at 5 minutes everyone put on masks OR sooner if you were at 60% or lower, had more then 3 symptoms of hypoxia, or if one of the instructors told you to put on mask.

@kortopates They said the idea behind brief time and not below 60% was to avoid hypoxia amnesia where you don't remember your experience.  The instructor outside asked everyone a question at some point (i.e. what are the forces of flight, what is a typical glide slope angle, etc.) and then instructed you to write a 3 and circle it.  Then on the debrief they asked what number you had circled and do you remember what that represents?  One guy was clueless and honestly couldn't remember being asked a question.  We had a sheet with crossword puzzle, math problems, and a maze to do "in your free time" but everyone had to write down their symptoms every min on the min (1/2/3/4/5).  they had write ins as well as typical symptoms (color saturation, nausea, headache, tingling, air hunger, tired/fatigue, etc.)

Never once did I feel the process was dangerous or unsafe.  On the contrary, my experience was very well run.  At 5 minutes I was at 70%, felt a little overtired (just finished a night shift) type feeling/dull, felt a slight need to take deeper breaths, and some slight tingling.  So if I feel dull and overtired that's my cue to consider oxygen and check my pulse ox.

Highly recommend all pilots do this, even the normally aspirated guys can get high enough to have problems!  Plus it's good to know your hypoxia symptoms in case there may be something else at play (i.e. CO).  CO may show normal pulse ox reading...so if it doesn't add up, maybe head down.

This was my experience, too, except my face and nose got tingly. I'd like to do it again. 

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, Marc_B said:

When I did the PROTE at BJC there was an attendant on oxygen inside the enclosure with us, 5 pilots going though the chamber, a person on a microphone outside asking questions and running the equipment and about 3 people standing around watching.  We weren't locked inside, we had demand oxygen masks in our laps, and we were monitoring our pulse ox the entire time.  Instruction was at 5 minutes everyone put on masks OR sooner if you were at 60% or lower, had more then 3 symptoms of hypoxia, or if one of the instructors told you to put on mask.

He was talking about a true altitude chamber, where they pump out the air.  You experience both lack of oxygen and low pressure (other physiological effects).

The traveling system just lowers the oxygen level to simulate lower partial pressure of oxygen at altitude.

[N201MKTurbo]

The chamber at Gateway is a giant vacuum chamber. It has two of the biggest vacuum pumps I have ever seen. They said on a good day it will go to 120,000 feet. They said Google developed their pressure suit for their ballon flight there. Just remember that if you go above 60,000 feet without a pressure suit your blood will boil and you will die pretty quickly. 
 

You control the altitude by closing all the exhaust valves and turning on the vacuum pumps individually. When it gets to the desired altitude you turn off the vacuum pumps. For descents there is a vernier gate valve for controlled descents and a large (10”) pneumatic gate valve for rapid decompression. I believe there is throttle valve in the vacuum lines to control the ascent rate. 
 

There is an E-Stop on the operators console to shut down the vacuum pumps. Once there is more than a few hundred feet altitude difference between ambient and the chamber, it is impossible to open the door. I would like like to see an E-Stop inside the chamber that would stop the pumps and open a 2” safety vent.

[0TreeLemur]

I did this training at Johnson Space Center as part of the approvals process to fly on the Vomit Comet.  Fantastic.

Two fighter jocks in the can with me decided to have a competition and see who passed out first.  A minute or so after I threw in the towel and put my mask back on, one of those two started drooling.  His head swooned a little bit, then hit the desk with a thump.  His buddy yelled in victory but didn't put his mask back on.   One of the crew did that for him.

[Pinecone]

We did 3 chamber rides in USAF UPT.

The first one was the standard one.  I was the guy they gave up on.  I was answering their questions, doing math problems, etc.  So finally they just told to "treat yourself."  That was the term to put on your mask and push all 3 levers forward (On, 100% O2, and Pressure).

The second one was a short one before night flying.  This one was the most impressive.  They had us at 5000 feet, mask off, in low light.  They handed up that large square card.  After a while (20 minutes or so), they had use turn the card over.  It was a pie chart with lot of narrow segments in various shades of grey.  They can the command "treat yourself" and you popped on your mask, took one breath and BANG, all those greys turned into bright colors.   The change was so dramatic, that most people jerked their head back it was so sudden.

Final ride was before flying the T-38.  This was the explosive decompression one.  They had about 5 people at a time in the small side chamber.  They had us at 10,000 feet.  The large chamber was pumped to 35,000 feet.  Then they popped the door between them. BANG, almost instantly at 35,000.  Another attention getter.

[JohnB]

Thought my PROTE chamber 20 minutes was one of the most educational experiences in my flying career. I now know my personal exact hypoxia symptoms (which is different for everyone) and when I feel one of those, ill check my oxygen sat, and usually it easily correctable, (kinked hose, dial too low or other). Or even very warm days at 8-9k sometimes Ill feel that and sure enough, a bit of oxygen helps. 

 

Hugely educational if you've never done one. 

[carusoam]

I sat outside the Prote chamber once…

They required a class III medical…

And all I had was Basic Med… still supported by an old class III…

My debate skills are pretty good, but ineffective that day… so I had a good doctor try and debate the issue for me….

Still no luck…
 

Guess they don’t mind me falling asleep at 12.5k’… as long as I didn’t sleep in their chamber….  
 

Soooo… if you go out of your way to ride the chamber… make sure you know their rules… and bring your documents…

Best regards,

-a-

[exM20K]

47 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Thought my PROTE chamber 20 minutes was one of the most educational experiences in my flying career. I now know my personal exact hypoxia symptoms (which is different for everyone) and when I feel one of those, ill check my oxygen sat, and usually it easily correctable, (kinked hose, dial too low or other). Or even very warm days at 8-9k sometimes Ill feel that and sure enough, a bit of oxygen helps. 

 

Hugely educational if you've never done one. 

Ditto.  At the Mooney Summit in, i guess, 2020, they brought it to ECP.  What was remarkable to me was the spread of hypoxia symptoms among the group in the chamber.  I was playing with yarn very quickly while others were doing differential equations.  No particular correlation with age/fitness was evident.  eye opening for sure

-dan

[kortopates]

I sat outside the Prote chamber once…
They required a class III medical…
And all I had was Basic Med… still supported by an old class III…
My debate skills are pretty good, but ineffective that day… so I had a good doctor try and debate the issue for me….
Still no luck…
 
Guess they don’t mind me falling asleep at 12.5k’… as long as I didn’t sleep in their chamber….  
 
Soooo… if you go out of your way to ride the chamber… make sure you know their rules… and bring your documents…
Best regards,
-a-

I believe they are accepting Basic Med now.


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[Scott Ashton]

I heard they were scheduled to be at sun n fun coming up.   Basic med now accepted….

[N201MKTurbo]

I did this thing today. 
 

I kind of cheated. Doctor Brent Blue wrote an article once about breathing techniques that can increase your SpO2. I have practiced them for years while flying. I can typically increase my SpO2 by 10%. I did this in the PROTE. After 5 minutes at 25000 feet my SpO2 was only down to 78. I was perfectly functional, doing math problems and such. They had me stand up and sit down 5 times after 5 minutes, no problem.

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I did this thing today. 
 

I kind of cheated. Doctor Brent Blue wrote an article once about breathing techniques that can increase your SpO2. I have practiced them for years while flying. I can typically increase my SpO2 by 10%. I did this in the PROTE. After 5 minutes at 25000 feet my SpO2 was only down to 78. I was perfectly functional, doing math problems and such. They had me stand up and sit down 5 times after 5 minutes, no problem.

I went earlier this week.   I made it to the end without any conscious effort on breathing, although I do do that in the airplane if I'm feeling a little funny.   I wanted to see what my full span of symptoms might be, so I just breathed normally without putting any thought into it.   At the end I was the only one left without their mask on and the instructor asked me to name all of the six pack instruments.   I couldn't remember turn-and-bank, but rattled off everything else.   I was definitely impaired, but I was aware I was impaired, which I was glad about.

The twenty-somethings I did the exercise with thought it was amusing that "the old guy" outlasted all of them, but they all had pretty definitive and notable symptoms that were good indicators.   They all said that their symptoms were strong enough and "make this stop now" kinds of things that they put their masks on.    I only got a bit dizzy through the whole exercise, which was a little disappointing to me as I was hoping for some more definitive symptoms.   My motor skills went to crap at the end and I had a difficult time writing down my last pulse/ox reading (68/118).   So 68 + 10% would be about right to get to 78%.

+1 highly recommend, would do again.