Buying a Mooney, very low time pilot. What to look for?

[AnAngryGoose]

Hi everyone,

I'm brand new here. Looking at buying a Mooney M20D as I've gotten offered an unbelievable deal on it, it seems. I've gotten a list on what to look for in a prebuy. It needs avionics work finished, but that is my day job so I'm not too worried about it. Mostly looking to expand my knowledge on Mooneys and this one specifically.

 

I'd be training more in a C210 while I finish up the work needed. I know that a Mooney seems to be a little much to learn in, but I just feel like the offer is too good to pass up and I'd kick myself later if I let it go. Is it completely ridiculous to think it's a (not terrible) idea to learn to fly more in my own plane? Let alone a complex retract like a Mooney?

 

I've read other threads on the idea here and on other pages and it's seems to be a divided issue. I know I wouldn't save money in the end like I would renting for a PPL, but I know I'd wanna own my own plane down the line. I figure if the opportunity is here now, why not take it? Let alone I could use it as an investment and sell it later, though I wouldn't want to, I don't think.

 

Thoughts?

[A64Pilot]

If you can handle a C-210 safely without issue, you can handle a Mooney. Both are complex airplanes and that's what’s important, sure a Mooney handles differently but you can get used to that.

I normally tell low time people to get more experience and maybe their instrument ticket before buying a Mooney, honestly because all there are is all there will be and every year there are less of them. Mooney’s not low time pilots. It’s being complex that’s the issue, handling prop, gear, flaps, cowl flaps, mixture and speed control can task saturate someone, especially in a busy pattern or a controller asking for something that doesn’t make sense, but if you can fly enough to be comfortable in the 210 you will be OK.

My 2c, but be comfortable in the 210 first, and I’m sure insurence will require transition training so you’ll get that

[AnAngryGoose]

Thanks for the input. I'll definitely have a good bit of time to put into the 210 (plus whatever else I can get my hands on) by the time I finish the work needed on the Mooney. 

 

As for the deal offered. Would this be an OK place to post a little specific info to make sure the deal is as good as it seems?

[Shadrach]

51 minutes ago, AnAngryGoose said:

As for the deal offered. Would this be an OK place to post a little specific info to make sure the deal is as good as it seems?

Please do tell us about it. Always nice to see the potential for part of he fleet to get upgraded. 

[EricJ]

59 minutes ago, AnAngryGoose said:

As for the deal offered. Would this be an OK place to post a little specific info to make sure the deal is as good as it seems?

Sure, you'll get plenty of opinions here, and there are a few people here flying Ds that have been converted to Cs, and lots and lots of people flying C models.

As with any internet forum, take the opinions fwiw, but you'll definitely get input.

 

[AnAngryGoose]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Please do tell us about it. Always nice to see the potential for part of he fleet to get upgraded. 

It's a 1964(5?) M20D. 1200hrs total on airframe. 400 SMOH. Multiple speed mods, O&N fuel tank mod, a few other STC mods. EXCELLENT condition. The deal would include hangar it is currently in (250$/month). New carpet and interior (light brown leather). AD's are C/W (some recurrent may be needed as it hasn't flown in a little while). Only work needed (I know of) is finish avionics install, which is not a problem for me honestly. Seller is asking 19k for plane and then I'd pay for hangar space.

 

I will be doing a prebuy tomorrow and over the next few days to verify everything but so far from what I've seen when I have looked at it the last few times, it is in great shape.

[AnAngryGoose]

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Sure, you'll get plenty of opinions here, and there are a few people here flying Ds that have been converted to Cs, and lots and lots of people flying C models.

As with any internet forum, take the opinions fwiw, but you'll definitely get input.

 

That is actually one thing I wanted to clarify. So when a D is converted (LG I mean) it technically becomes a C model then?

[Shadrach]

19K is certainly a an inexpensive buy in. Seems to good to be true. When was it converted to a retract?  When was the engine overhauled (years ago not time)?  That is a really low time airframe, but corrosion does not care how long it’s been flown. It will need a thorough pre-buy. In what part of the county is it located?

[AnAngryGoose]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

19K is certainly a an inexpensive buy in. Seems to good to be true. When was it converted to a retract?  When was the engine overhauled (years ago not time)?  That is a really low time airframe, but corrosion does not care how long it’s been flown. It will need a thorough pre-buy. In what part of the county is it located?

Not sure on specific years. I will know more tomorrow when I go through logs, etc. I know it was overhauled by Mattituk who is very reputable. It does seem too good to be true, which is why I'm asking here and planning the pre-buy so much.

So far I've checked for corrosion on every space I can find without removing entire panels and have not been able to find anything. I'll be doing compression checks on engine tomorrow, along with an extensive list of other checks including checking for rust and other corrosion on the superstructure.

It's in the SW US. Been hangared since it was purchased, or so I'm told. Though, I'd believe it based on the condition I've seen so far.

[Hank]

Sounds like fun! I bought my C five weeks after my PPL checkride.

Your D will always be a D, but after retract conversion and constant speed prop, it will fly like a C. These upgrades were planned by the factory.

If you can handle a C206, the Mooney will be easy. All I had flown before was C172 and a Beech Skipper.

Get an experienced Mooney CFI, pay attention, stay in student mode and you'll do fine. 

Let us know how it goes!

[AnAngryGoose]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Sounds like fun! I bought my C five weeks after my PPL checkride.

Your D will always be a D, but after retract conversion and constant speed prop, it will fly like a C. These upgrades were planned by the factory.

If you can handle a C206, the Mooney will be easy. All I had flown before was C172 and a Beech Skipper.

Get an experienced Mooney CFI, pay attention, stay in student mode and you'll do fine. 

Let us know how it goes!

I'll be sure to do that. I plan on learning all I can. Luckily my CFI is experienced with Mooneys so that will help. Still have a LOT to learn, but hopefully it works out in the end how I hope it will.

Maybe I'll make a progress thread on the work to get it running and flying if it all works out.

[EricJ]

50 minutes ago, AnAngryGoose said:

So far I've checked for corrosion on every space I can find without removing entire panels and have not been able to find anything. I'll be doing compression checks on engine tomorrow, along with an extensive list of other checks including checking for rust and other corrosion on the superstructure.

It's in the SW US. Been hangared since it was purchased, or so I'm told. Though, I'd believe it based on the condition I've seen so far.

If you're doing a compression check do a borescope inspection at the same time while the plugs are out.   A check of the valves and cylinder walls is very useful.

A D with a constant-speed prop and retracts is essentially equivalent to a C.

The southwest is good for corrosion mitigation.   Check for critter intrusion, though, if it's been sitting, even if hangared.

[Shadrach]

Important to see if  SB 208B was completed but the interior needs to be pulled either way. Is the plane airworthy? It really would be best looked over by an experienced Mooney Mechanic. It’s good that it’s in the SW but that’s not a guarantee.

[AnAngryGoose]

I'll be sure to find another A&P who has more experience with Mooney's than me. Thanks for the advice. 

Borescope is definitely planned. Hopefully that goes well. 

 

Any other specifics to look for?

[DCarlton]

I'll make one suggestion.  If you're low time, make sure your gear warning horn is working and make sure you can hear it with headsets on.  If it's like mine, it activates when you pull back the throttle and if the airspeed is low enough.  

Not an expert... just a '67 F pilot for almost 20 years.  

[KLRDMD]

4 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I'll make one suggestion.  If you're low time, make sure your gear warning horn is working and make sure you can hear it with headsets on.  If it's like mine, it activates when you pull back the throttle and if the airspeed is low enough.  Not an expert... just a '67 F pilot for almost 20 years.  

I don't believe airspeed is involved in the gear warning, only throttle position. My recollections is below 13" with the gear up should trigger it.

[Shadrach]

25 minutes ago, AnAngryGoose said:

I'll be sure to find another A&P who has more experience with Mooney's than me. Thanks for the advice. 

Borescope is definitely planned. Hopefully that goes well. 

 

Any other specifics to look for?

You may not need another A&P. I was not sure if you were an A&P as I know lots of folks that work under repair station certs.  The only reason I suggested a Mooney specific individual is because the airframe really needs to be gone through. At 19k you’re mitigating a lot of risk, but it could still turn into a huge PITA if you find a major airframe issue after purchase. 
This checklist was graciously posted in the downloads section by @M20Doc, a very experienced Mooney tech and shop owner to our North. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

At the price point you are talking about corrosion is the only real deal killer.  Anything else can be made up with the price differential between what you might normally pay and what your are paying.  
 

The biggest issue with training in a Mooney is insurance.  But that is also going to be a issue with a C210.   I honestly would be surprised if an insurance company would green light a student pilot to solo in a C210.  Keep in mind a rental plane will have insurance to cover the owner but not you.  Non owned aircraft insurance is generally in order to cover your potential liability.   In the case of an accident it’s highly likely an insurance company will come after you for the full value of the claim.    
 

Between the two I would suspect a Mooney would be easier to insure than a 210.   I would investigate the insurance situation before purchasing.  

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I don't believe airspeed is involved in the gear warning, only throttle position. My recollections is below 13" with the gear up should trigger it.

Mine has an airspeed safety switch.  I may have mixed up that function with the gear warning horn switch on the throttle.  Will have to revisit the airspeed switch function.  Thanks.  Either way get them working !  

[AnAngryGoose]

Thanks everyone. I'll be sure to make sure I check all of that. Airframe issues and any major engine issues are the main things I'll be looking for.

 

I'll update whatever I find out here, if anyone is interested

[bcg]

6 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

The biggest issue with training in a Mooney is insurance.  But that is also going to be a issue with a C210.   I honestly would be surprised if an insurance company would green light a student pilot to solo in a C210.  Keep in mind a rental plane will have insurance to cover the owner but not you.  Non owned aircraft insurance is generally in order to cover your potential liability.   In the case of an accident it’s highly likely an insurance company will come after you for the full value of the claim.    
 

Between the two I would suspect a Mooney would be easier to insure than a 210.   I would investigate the insurance situation before purchasing.  

I bought my C to finish my PPL in, nobody would even quote insurance for me while still a student.  They all said they will not cover a student pilot in a retract, end of discussion, thanks for calling.  I could afford to pay cash and self-insure, so that's what I did and am doing.  I've got 30 hours in it so far (16 of them being a trip from Tx to Ga and back last week) and I don't regret the decision at all, I absolutely love this bird.  There is a lot to manage in the pattern when you're practicing landings and pounding them out one after another, especially since this plane is so much faster than a trainer, so I'm extending downwind to slow things down and not feel rushed.  Other than that, I haven't really felt that it was that much more work than the Cherokee I was flying before and again, in the pattern the thing that's really increasing the workload is the speed of the plane, find a way to slow things down and it gets easier.  I say do it if you can, I think you'll be glad you did in the long run.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, bcg said:

There is a lot to manage in the pattern when you're practicing landings and pounding them out one after another, especially since this plane is so much faster than a trainer, so I'm extending downwind to slow things down and not feel rushed.

I flew the C172s as a student at 70 knots downwind and base, 65 knots on final.

I fly my M20-C as an owner at 90 mph downwind and base, 85 mph on final.

FYI, 90 mph = 78 knots, so just a little faster, not a lot.. My first seven years, the downwind was over town, and I noticed that in the Mooney I was about two blocks wider than in the Cessna. 

The big differences are few:

• Lowering flaps in the Mooney lowers the nose, while in the Cessna it raises the nose
• In the Mooney, I can see the field while turning in a standard left pattern
• In both, I move throttle to idle when I can glide to the runway. This happens much further out in the Mooney. In fact, a Cherokee pilot told me that if he had gone to idle when I did, he would have been in the trees instead of on the runway. Know the glide and plan to accommodate it.
• Don't forget the gear! Gear down to start your descent abeam your intended point of landing, then slight throttle reduction. 

That's about all I remember, lo, these many years later. I transitioned in 2007, having bought my Mooney with 62 hours in my logbook.

Good luck, have fun and learn to fly your Mooney well.

[bcg]

23 minutes ago, Hank said:

I flew the C172s as a student at 70 knots downwind and base, 65 knots on final.

I fly my M20-C as an owner at 90 mph downwind and base, 85 mph on final.

FYI, 90 mph = 78 knots, so just a little faster, not a lot.. My first seven years, the downwind was over town, and I noticed that in the Mooney I was about two blocks wider than in the Cessna. 

The big differences are few:

• Lowering flaps in the Mooney lowers the nose, while in the Cessna it raises the nose
• In the Mooney, I can see the field while turning in a standard left pattern
• In both, I move throttle to idle when I can glide to the runway. This happens much further out in the Mooney. In fact, a Cherokee pilot told me that if he had gone to idle when I did, he would have been in the trees instead of on the runway. Know the glide and plan to accommodate it.
• Don't forget the gear! Gear down to start your descent abeam your intended point of landing, then slight throttle reduction. 

That's about all I remember, lo, these many years later. I transitioned in 2007, having bought my Mooney with 62 hours in my logbook.

Good luck, have fun and learn to fly your Mooney well.

I appreciate this input.

 

That 8 knots makes a big difference, for me anyway.  The biggest issue I have is that the plane does not want to both slow down and descend at the same time and, as you alluded, you have to pull power a lot sooner than you do in a lot of others.  Once I get my airspeed dialed in and the descent actually starts, I'm usually in pretty good shape.  I use the gear to help slow me down, like speed brakes, they're the first part of my setup in the pattern and I sometimes drop them before entering downwind just to help me slow down when I'm not doing pattern work.  I'm sure with more time, I'll get better at managing the airspeed, these things are just so dang slick that it requires some effort to get them slowed down.  My actual touchdowns have been pretty good, I think that part of the Mooney landing is actually easier than the trainers in a lot of ways (as long as your speed is right), it's just getting airspeed and descent dialed in for final that is giving me some fits right now, especially if flying laps.

 

I've been shooting for 90 on downwind, 85 on base, 80 on final and 75 once the runway is assured.  This usually means throttle to 1500 at the 1,000' marks on downwind and then usually going almost to idle almost as soon as I turn final.  I try to trim up on final, especially after introducing the last of the flaps, both to help with the airspeed and to make the flare less dramatic and reduce the chance of ballooning.  I'm just a lowly 50 hour student with a hair over 30 hours in my C though, so I'm constantly reading and trying to learn from others, as well as trying different things when I'm not getting the results I want.  I'm always open to more helpful suggestions from those of you that have more experience with this than I do, which is almost everyone here.

[211º]

17 hours ago, AnAngryGoose said:

it's seems to be a divided issue

You understand mooneyspace; you’ll be fine. 

[Fly Boomer]

16 hours ago, AnAngryGoose said:

So far I've checked for corrosion on every space I can find without removing entire panels and have not been able to find anything.

Other considerations have already been discussed, so I'll just stress this one.  There are places that need to be examined which are not obvious by removing inspection covers.  There can be hidden corrosion damage that could make the airplane a bad deal at any price.  Get the best Mooney expert you can afford to do a comprehensive inspection.