Avionics Decision

[Pinecone]

In the process of buying an M20K 252.  Trying to decide what to do about the avionics.

#1  Just fly it.  Currently 430W, Stratus ADS-B, KX-165, 150 autopilot, HSI, ADF, Sigtronics intercom, etc.

#2  Add a 750Xi and replace audio panel (probably PS Engineering), and replace Stratus with Garmin 345R

#3  Number 2, plus do a G3X with G5 for back up.  

#4 Go all out and add GFC-500 autopilot for the fully integrated setup.

Thoughts are, doing this now allows it to be folded into the aircraft financing.

Comments?  Suggestions.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Trying to decide what to do about the avionics.

Unless you know the airplane intimately, just fly it for a year.  I can almost guarantee some surprises.  Some surprises could be so expensive, you may wish you had deferred the avionics upgrades.

[toto]

… And while you’re flying it for a year, think about how much you want to do to the panel. If you’re going to go to #4 at some point, I’d recommend doing it all at once. I’ve done a lot of piecemeal avionics, and there’s a lot of shop time spent for each phase tearing things apart and putting them back together (not to mention paperwork, W&B, etc) that would be better to do in one big install. 

[Ragsf15e]

Don’t do 3 without 4 and vice versa.

 I would fly it for a year as is myself and then go big for 3/4 once you’re really sure.

[LANCECASPER]

I'd fly it for a year or two and see what's available then for the panel. This stuff changes fast.

As has been stated you will have some maintenance the first year to catch up on - just part of the deal. Will it be $5000? $10,000? $20,000? Hard to say. Right off the bat, I've had to do shock discs on every Mooney I've bought since people put that off as long as they can. That's $2000. What shape is the baffling in? How's the Turbo? Tanks? Landing gear actuator? Cylinders? Tires? Brakes? Alternators? Starter?

The last 252 was made 32 years ago. It's nice to fly behind a new panel, but what's in there right now will get you to your destination at the exact same time as any of the new stuff. Start saving up a $30,000 - $40,000 cash reserve for something expensive that goes wrong. After you've made it through a good couple of annuals and you can pay cash for a new panel, then it might be time.

Just keep in mind, you are feeding and maintaining an $800,000 airplane since that's what they would run now if they still sold new ones, not a $200,000-$250,000 airplane, which is what the purchase price was. 

[ArtVandelay]

Supply shortages have made a mess of avionics availability…I would not do anything until it gets resolved.

[hubcap]

I agree with the others. Fly it for a year, do a thorough annual and get everything up to speed mechanically, first. 

I bought My M20K, "Myrtle" in 2020 and she was in good condition and had a good enough IFR panel to get by. I spent some money on my first annual doing a bunch of smaller maintenance items getting her in tip top shape. Now I am planning on a complete panel upgrade, including GFC 500 autopilot, this fall when my annual is due. The avionics shop STRONGLY recommend doing it one time rather than piecemeal. It costs many more AMU's when you take it apart over and over. Garmin, Avidyne and Dynon all seem to make good products with loyal followings. 

I would say that JohnZ's price point of 85+ AMU will get it done with top of the line gear.

Edited June 19, 2022 by hubcap

[Browncbr1]

If I were in your shoes, I’d fly it for a while and get through a couple hundred hours and annual.  Maybe by then, Dynon will have their AP approved as an alternative flight deck to garmin if wanted.  The GFC is just too expensive in my mind. 

[Cruiser]

The two main reasons to upgrade avionics are:

1. the old stuff quit working 

2. you are selling the airplane and want to get top dollar for it

Steam gauges are just as capable of providing safe, accurate flight as the new 'glass' equipment so the the last reason to upgrade is because you want to. 

[Pinecone]

Thanks

I understand the idea of flying it for a year.

But, if I buy the plan and fly it for a year, I will need to save money for the avionics AND pay for maintenance issues out of income.   If I do the avionics now, I add that into the financing, so paying over time, and funding maintenance issues out of income.

I agree that it makes sense to do it all at once, if I  going that way.   But anyway, I will probably be flying it for 6 - 9 months, just waiting for all the pieces to arrive.

[toto]

32 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

The two main reasons to upgrade avionics are:

1. the old stuff quit working 

2. you are selling the airplane and want to get top dollar for it

Steam gauges are just as capable of providing safe, accurate flight as the new 'glass' equipment so the the last reason to upgrade is because you want to. 

I have entered the realm of “never going to spend new money to fix old crap.” It’s very expensive to have, e.g., an old vacuum HSI overhauled, and at the end of the day it adds zero value to the aircraft (either in resale or in capability). I would much rather spend the same money on 21st century solid-state stuff than spend the money fixing old stuff. 

[hubcap]

2 hours ago, Cruiser said:

The two main reasons to upgrade avionics are:

1. the old stuff quit working 

2. you are selling the airplane and want to get top dollar for it

Steam gauges are just as capable of providing safe, accurate flight as the new 'glass' equipment so the the last reason to upgrade is because you want to. 

I agree with everything you have said. However, if you are flying a 40 year old plane like I am, things are going to break. Do you want them to break when you are in hard IMC? I chose to replace a bunch of 40 year old equipment that is still working. Because, when it quits it is going to be difficult to get repair parts. Choosing to preemptively replace 40 year old equipment is a good idea in my opinion...even if you just put in a couple of G5's.

Edited June 19, 2022 by hubcap

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Thanks

I understand the idea of flying it for a year.

But, if I buy the plan and fly it for a year, I will need to save money for the avionics AND pay for maintenance issues out of income.   If I do the avionics now, I add that into the financing, so paying over time, and funding maintenance issues out of income.

I agree that it makes sense to do it all at once, if I  going that way.   But anyway, I will probably be flying it for 6 - 9 months, just waiting for all the pieces to arrive.

History says that you get roughly 50 cents worth of value for every dollar you put in the panel, obviously with some exceptions below and above that. The main reason in my opinion is that your idea of a perfect panel is always going to be somewhat different that someone else's. And we all know that we get a much "better deal" when we find an airplane where the previous buyer has dumped a lot of money in upgrades.

With prices of airplanes being at all time highs, the last thing I personally would do is finance a toy,  and then on top of that finance a new panel for the toy. It's almost a given that, even after a substantial down payment, after prices go through the down cycle, which in history they always have, I would owe considerably more than I can get for it. This is from a person who financed my first couple airplanes a long time ago. I have always paid them off, but not fun owing more than it's worth. It happens all the time, that's why you see airplanes being sold by a bank.

[OR75]

Looks like you already have a very good avionics already 

if you really want to be busy doing something : 

1) remove the ADF. Yes, remove the ADF and declutter the panel and lose a few pounds.

2) remove the TC and replace with a G5 configured as an AI or an RCAllen AI 

3) install an intercom PSE or Garmin 

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, JohnZ said:

Besides that... go full send... see you on the deep end 

Finally!  This place is slipping at spending OPM…

[KLudwick]

I realize I'm a little late to this thread, but just recently upgraded my airplane.  We waited four years to upgrade our panel and wish we would have done it sooner.  Previously, I would shy away from IFR due to a lack of trust in my old vacuum pump and gyro instruments.  Now, my wife and I fly more hours and more direct routes (due to us having confidence in going through weather we wouldn't have previously) and just simply get more use out of the airplane.

You made a great point about lead times and install times, too - I'd personally try to secure a slot at an avionics shop in the distant future, and research what you really want to install during the earlier period of that wait time.  

At the end of the day, I think planning on making upgrades to the airplane earlier will get you more use out of it in the long run.  We went dual GI 275, GTN 750Xi, GTX345, and GFC 500 (three servo) and couldn't be happier with our selection.  

[Pinecone]

Update, went through several planes before finding one that was actually available and in reasonable shape and the stars, sun, moon, and planets aligned.

The one I bought has an Aspen and a G5 with a 650 and GTX-345 in the panel.  EDM-700 engine monitor.

So I got a quote for a G3X with EIS and GFC-500 autopilot.  It seems that while Garmin says the G3X supports the KAP-150, it is not a match made in heaven.

In rolling the avionics into the load, they would only finance about 40% of the avionics upgrades.   But selling the Aspen and KAP-150 will help offset some of the costs.

Eventually, I think a 750 is likely.

[carusoam]

See if you can find pics of @donkaye’s panel…

He has a showroom of all Garmin upgrades in his Bravo…

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

I would add that doing electronics you should have a long term plan of what the finished product looks like.   You should also highly consider how various manufacturers play with others.  Legacy analog also does not play nice with new digital.  
 
Avionics is the one area where I usually see somebody buying X because they think they got a deal.  They quietly sell X at a loss when they figure out Y which was just a bit more was better.  
 
Make a plan and have people poke holes in it.  You can almost always do things in phases as well. 

[donkaye]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:18 AM, carusoam said:

See if you can find pics of @donkaye’s panel…

He has a showroom of all Garmin upgrades in his Bravo…

Best regards,

-a-

As of today, I wouldn't change a thing.

[PeteMc]

@donkaye  What goes in the yoke mount?

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

As of today, I wouldn't change a thing.

Some may not like that tall panel, but I love that you can easily get a 750, 650, and autopilot in the center stack.  Would you be equally happy with two 650s?

[donkaye]

36 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Some may not like that tall panel, but I love that you can easily get a 750, 650, and autopilot in the center stack.  Would you be equally happy with two 650s?

Absolutely Not!  The screen size, chart display,  and other ease of use functionality make the GTN 750 a must have for me.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

@donkaye  What goes in the yoke mount?

 

The Aera 760.  Even with all the other displays I make use of the 760 constantly.  One could say I have too many displays, but I have the capability of having four types of weather ( XM (GDL 69A older version), SXM (760), ADSB, Stormscope,) up all at the same time.  I, also, use the 760 for Jeppesen Approach Plates backed up with Garmin Pilot, Foreflight, and JeppFD on the iPad, all with Jeppesen Plates that I favor.

[M20F]

13 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Absolutely Not!  The screen size, chart display,  and other ease of use functionality make the GTN 750 a must have for me.

What do you gain from the 750 that the 500/650/iPad doesn’t provide?