NotarPilot Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I came across a nicely equippped 1965 C model for sale on Controller but was told the engine was last overhauled in 1983. The engine has just shy of 1,100 SMOH and 771 hours since a top in 2000 because the engine sat for a year or more. Compression numbers are 1-78, 2-76, 3-76, 4-78 over 80. I don't have oil analysis information. Question is should I consider proceeding and maybe taking a closer look at this plane or would there be too many potential problems on the engine? Thanks in advance for your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 The engine has no book value but it might run some time before needing overhaul. I would be concerned about the cam. Pull a cylinder and do a visual on all the lobes and lifters. If any are spalled, you have your answer. We did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 29 years since overhaul is worrisome, but it breaks down much better than 1100 hours in 29 years [37 hours/yr!]. Since the top, it has averaged 70 hours per year, a much nicer number. The TOH is also nice. But the cam will tell the story. Either way, be prepared to do a Major at any time. I would worry about gaskets, seals and hoses just from the time perspective, as rubber does break down. Find George Perry's article on what to look for when purchasing a Vintage Mooney, he has a lot of very knowledgeable advice. The "Search" button is your friend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's really quite simple... Price it as run-out Run it on condidtion Our factory engine went 34 years between OH and the Cam and Crank were fine. It sometimes only flew 5hrs per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I wouldn't exclude it from my search, but if you pursue it, make sure someone does a very thorough pre-buy, preferabbly an MSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregwatts Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would not walk away, but the engine has no value....so make your offer accordingly. A TOH in 2000 may buy you some time...but be ready to do an major overhaul. The engine is not your only worry. If this plane did excessive sitting, you will have tanks and corrosion etc to deal with. If you can steal the plane, fine......but I suggest you keep looking. My opinion only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: gregwatts I would not walk away, but the engine has no value....so make your offer accordingly. A TOH in 2000 may buy you some time...but be ready to do an major overhaul. The engine is not your only worry. If this plane did excessive sitting, you may have tanks and corrosion etc to deal with. If you can steal the plane, fine......but I suggest you keep looking. My opinion only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I agree with what is mentioned - be ready for an overhaul at any time, price it as a runout, and be ready for other time related use items that may show themselves after many years of little use. There will most likely be a long list of squaks to work through, but if it is a good deal, it may be worth it. Understand when all is said and done, you'll have paid more than the plane is worth to get it back up to speed (pun inteneded), but it will be new or overauled parts at that point that should last quite a while. If you steal it for $20k, add an overhauled engine, overhaul or put in a new vacum pump, prop governor, new hub or do the test all the time, new or overhauled prop, maybe some new avionics or overhauled artificial horizon, tires, brakes, landing discs/biscuts, maybe tanks, maybe paint, mabye corrosion etc . . . the total bill will come to over $40k (very conservite number). So, that's 60k in a C model, but it'll be in great shape at that point with no issues, and you can space the additions and upgrades over time to match cash flow. Good luck and let us know what you decide. -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: GEE-BEE I bought a 1950 Bonaza with 1468 tt, pulled the motor and cylinders all good she is still perfect Location and proper maintenance is the key... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: GEE-BEE I bought a 1950 Bonaza with 1468 tt, pulled the motor and cylinders all good she is still perfect Location and proper maintenance is the key... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Thats not chrome, its polished Alclad. I always had a special fondness for those 1947-1950s bonanzas. We saw a 1947 at OSH same as yours. He did 150 knots on 11 GPH, about the same as the Mooney 201 that came 30 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: jetdriven Thats not chrome, its polished Alclad. I always had a special fondness for those 1947-1950s bonanzas. We saw a 1947 at OSH same as yours. He did 150 knots on 11 GPH, about the same as the Mooney 201 that came 30 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 i knew it looked familiar. This is N5186C at Oshkosh, 2011. However, it is registered to an owner in Iowa. Did you sell her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: JimR With enough polishing, you could make your Mooney look like that beautiful Bonanza. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: JimR With enough polishing, you could make your Mooney look like that beautiful Bonanza. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Gee Bee said it right. Location and proper maintenance is the key... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: aviatoreb Gorgeous airplane GB. I have always loved those chrome old school airplane finishes. Has anyone ever seen a chromed Mooney? So where did you buy this airplane from that it ws perfect since 1950? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolter Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: NotarPilot I came across a nicely equippped 1965 C model for sale on Controller but was told the engine was last overhauled in 1983. The engine has just shy of 1,100 SMOH and 771 hours since a top in 2000 because the engine sat for a year or more. Compression numbers are 1-78, 2-76, 3-76, 4-78 over 80. I don't have oil analysis information. Question is should I consider proceeding and maybe taking a closer look at this plane or would there be too many potential problems on the engine? Thanks in advance for your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Some of this is painful to read. Those of you who council that an engine over 12 years old has no value because it automatically needs an O/H will sing a different song when you're a seller, and we do get a lot more buyers around here than sellers. As has been pointed out above, a thorough engine inspection can alleviate most concerns. I suspect much of the discomfort comes from those new to airplane ownership. My advise is if you like the plane otherwise, dig (inspect) deeper, and come to some reasonable middle ground. Being to unreasonable can cause some sellers of otherwise nice planes to walk away before you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Right on, Gary. Although I think a 29 year old engine has only core value, a 5 year old engine is worth something. Our engine was 10 years old and 1300 SMOH and we paid the value of its remaining hours. I just got into a pretty hot discussion over on BeechTalk with a shop owner that declares any engine or prop beyond TBO calendar time or hours as "unairworthy" and signs off the annual as such. This from a 20- year shop owner. Amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: tomcullen When I was looking at C models a couple of years ago, I found a nicely setup C model with some 201 mods and only 10-20 SMOH. Found out that the overhaul was done 5 years previous and those hours were put on then. It still had the original oil from the break-in, even. The plane was loved at one time, but had not gotten enough use in recent years. I liked the plane, even had a friend who lived in the area conduct a basic inspection, but could not make any offer that did not consider the engine to be runout. I fully intended to pay for a new engine before I would even fly it home. Of course the owner in this case or yours, will not want to accept that his engine has no value. My point? Make your decision and stick to your offer. There is no half way on the engine if you really consider it to be an unreliable engine in need of replacement. The owner may or may not be able to accept the financial loss, and may just wait for someone else to come around. Similarly, you need to be ready to walk away, more so than on typical negotiating items, because this is the powerplant and critical to safety. Or, as I did, reevaluate what you are looking for, and end up getting a clean J model. thanks, -dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: jetdriven Right on, Gary. Although I think a 29 year old engine has only core value, a 5 year old engine is worth something. Our engine was 10 years old and 1300 SMOH and we paid the value of its remaining hours. I just got into a pretty hot discussion over on BeechTalk with a shop owner that declares any engine or prop beyond TBO calendar time or hours as "unairworthy" and signs off the annual as such. This from a 20- year shop owner. Amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolter Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote: Shadrach Just to be clear...You were going to completely scrap an engine that had 10hrs since a major because it was 5 years old??? I find that to be "nucking futs"! Pulling a cylinder would likely tell you a lot and would easily establish if it was safe for VFR day ops... run it 35 hrs and get the oil analyzed and monitor you'll know soon if it's acting like a 10hr engine or if there are issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm not disagreeing with you on pricing...A seller with an aircraft that's been inactive for 5 years has to be willing to negotiate. Were the chips would fall would depend on inspection and the individuals involved. It was my impression from your post that you considered the engine junk on principal. All A/D mineral oil has anti oxidants. I do not understand the benefits of break in with non AD oils. Of the 3 engine builders I know, all 3 recommend Phillips XC multi from break in to rebuild. Not knowing what was in the crank case matters little as an oil analysis would tell you the level (or lack there of) of acid in the oil and or babbitt material in the oil. Unless you thought the seller was pulling a switcharoo with the engine oil, I think that it would possible to get a good idea of the condition of the powerplant from inspection and analysis. Nonetheless, you have to do what makes you comfortable and act in your own best interest. We certainly agree that it's a big investment and one that can break your wallet if things go badly. No need to go there if there are better options available... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldeano Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 a lot actually comes into play with the engine. Was it hangared or left outside? What kind of climate was it in? Did they put dehidrater plugs in? Are the cylinders chrome or nitrated? condensation is the biggest killer of Motors that are left unflown, followed by seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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