Spend someone else’s AMU’s

[MMsuper21]

Looking for some panel advice. I am about to start IFR training, not planning on much IFR but want the option.

I know the FAA just changed the ruling for the 3 approaches you don’t need 3 different instruments anymore so I could do it in my plane with the existing kx125, kx155, and ki209. 
 

Initially I thought gps175 but then panel redo will eat into the cost due to moving things around. Instead I could do GNX 375 get rid of the ESG. Or GNC 355 and get rid of kx125. 

Thanks!

[toto]

47 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Looking for some panel advice. I am about to start IFR training, not planning on much IFR but want the option.

I know the FAA just changed the ruling for the 3 approaches you don’t need 3 different instruments anymore so I could do it in my plane with the existing kx125, kx155, and ki209. 
 

Initially I thought gps175 but then panel redo will eat into the cost due to moving things around. Instead I could do GNX 375 get rid of the ESG. Or GNC 355 and get rid of kx125. 

Thanks!

Even before the new rule, you’d be good. ILS and LOC are two different types, and you can throw in a VOR for good measure.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, MMsuper21 said:

Looking for some panel advice. I am about to start IFR training, not planning on much IFR but want the option.

I know the FAA just changed the ruling for the 3 approaches you don’t need 3 different instruments anymore so I could do it in my plane with the existing kx125, kx155, and ki209. 
 

Initially I thought gps175 but then panel redo will eat into the cost due to moving things around. Instead I could do GNX 375 get rid of the ESG. Or GNC 355 and get rid of kx125. 

Thanks!

If both of your com radios already work now, I would do the GNX375 and get rid of the ESG. WAAS approaches plus you get ADS-B in (and of course out) transponder that will interface with your future plans. This means weather and traffic in the panel and sent out bluetooth to phones and tablets. You'll still get at least $1500 (maybe more) when you sell the ESG.

[MMsuper21]

59 minutes ago, toto said:

Even before the new rule, you’d be good. ILS and LOC are two different types, and you can throw in a VOR for good measure.

Hmm.. the last school I inquired said I needed an DME. Most CFIIs refuse to do it without an GPS in first place… I found one 1 so far. 

[MMsuper21]

48 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If both of your com radios already work now, I would do the GNX375 and get rid of the ESG. WAAS approaches plus you get ADS-B in (and of course out) transponder that will interface with your future plans. This means weather and traffic in the panel and sent out bluetooth to phones and tablets. You'll still get at least $1500 (maybe more) when you sell the ESG.

If I can fetch $1500 for the ESG that might be the way to go. 

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

If I can fetch $1500 for the ESG that might be the way to go. 

Long term it would be nice to get a standard layout on the left side with your adi/pfd above an hsi.  That’s not requiring, but definitely want that when you decide to do more than just a gps.

[eman1200]

You still have to do three different approaches

[Utah20Gflyer]

I would go with the 355 which is what I did in a very similar situation.  You already have ADSB handled so with the 355 you get the WAAS GPS navigator but also get a com radio with a database of frequencies in it.  Personally I like being able to select an airport and then select the frequency you want from a list.  It eliminates looking up the frequency and having to dial it in.   Just my personal preference though, the 375 is also nice and has it's benefits.  

[DCarlton]

Not what you asked, but my 67F panel used to look a lot like yours.  I got tired of chasing those velcro PTT switches around the yoke and I didn't like the extra cables in the cabin.  So... I had my yokes covered in leather and was able to install a small micro switch for PTT with the wiring covered.  The yoke may have been drilled to pass the wiring (can't remember for sure).  Anyway it cleaned things up nicely (a stress and workload reducer for me).    

[MMsuper21]

38 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Long term it would be nice to get a standard layout on the left side with your adi/pfd above an hsi.  That’s not requiring, but definitely want that when you decide to do more than just a gps.

Waiting on lasar to do their run of standard panels for vintage Mooneys. They contacted me a month ago and asked if I was interested silence since then. My IA prefers TSO parts since he lets me do most of the work. 

[MMsuper21]

1 minute ago, DCarlton said:

Not what you asked, but my 67F panel used to look a lot like yours.  I got tired of chasing those velcro PTT switches around the yoke and I didn't like the extra cables in the cabin.  So... I had my yokes covered in leather and was able to install a small micro switch for PTT with the wiring covered.  The yoke may have been drilled to pass the wiring (can't remember for sure).  Anyway it cleaned things up nicely (a stress and workload reducer for me).    

Did you keep original yokes? Or did you upgrade to the J ? 

[DCarlton]

4 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Did you keep original yokes? Or did you upgrade to the J ? 

No I kept the original yokes.  An upgrade would be nice but I still have the Brittain PC system and would like to keep it.  I can try to find a pic.  

Edited March 12, 2022 by DCarlton
Added pic. You can just see the PTT on the far left.

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Did you keep original yokes? Or did you upgrade to the J ? 

Here's a slightly better pic with the placards installed.  You can see both PTT switches.  Leather wrap is not beautiful but it gets the job done.  

[MMsuper21]

11 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Here's a slightly better pic with the placards installed.  You can see both PTT switches.  Leather wrap is not beautiful but it gets the job done.  

Add another project to the list

[LANCECASPER]

As you plan for future upgrades, for any IFR I like a second attitude indicator. You can replace your turn coordinator with a 2nd attitude as long as it has a slip/skid (ball) indicator.

[MMsuper21]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

As you plan for future upgrades, for any IFR I like a second attitude indicator. You can replace your turn coordinator with a 2nd attitude as long as it has a slip/skid (ball) indicator.

I am playing with the idea of an g5 or g275. So hard not to overspend. 

[rbp]

16 hours ago, eman1200 said:

You still have to do three different approaches

you have to do "three different kinds of approaches" 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(ii)(C)

[eman1200]

7 minutes ago, rbp said:

you have to do "three different kinds of approaches" 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(ii)©

And what’s the difference between “3 diff approaches“ and “3 diff kinds of approaches”?

 

EDIT:  I don't think anyone misunderstood the terminology to mean you can't do the same exact approach 3 times.  the issue with the wording was around the navigation systems used, not the fact that you need 3 diff approaches or 3 different kinds of approaches or 3 different types of approaches.  

 

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recently reviewed two legal interpretation and determined they were overly restrictive. The Glaser (2008) and Pratte (2012) legal interpretations focused on the requirements of an instrument rating under § 61.65.  Specifically, the requirement to use three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems to meet the requirements of § 61.65(d)(2)(ii)(C).  These interpretations inaccurately concluded that an applicant for an instrument rating must use three different kinds of navigation systems to meet these requirements.

On February 28, 2022, the FAA rescinded both the Glaser and Pratte legal interpretations, stating the regulation’s plain language requires three different types of approaches, not three different navigation systems.  Certificated flight instructors (CFI) and designated pilot examiners (DPEs) should be aware that the requirements for an instrument rating may be met by performing three different approaches, regardless of the source of navigation.  

Edited March 12, 2022 by eman1200

[toto]

17 hours ago, MMsuper21 said:

Hmm.. the last school I inquired said I needed an DME. Most CFIIs refuse to do it without an GPS in first place… I found one 1 so far. 

If the approach requires DME, then you’ll need a DME receiver, but many approaches don’t require DME.

Don’t get me wrong - an approach-certified GPS definitely opens up a lot of options for you. But you can fly IFR without it. 

I’m surprised that your CFII refuses to offer instrument instruction without a GPS. Training on “traditional” approaches using installed equipment is a favorite for instructors doing checkride prep, and can be a point of focus for examiners. 

[rbp]

1 hour ago, eman1200 said:

And what’s the difference between “3 diff approaches“ and “3 diff kinds of approaches”?

 

ILS 24R
ILS 24C
ILS 24L

are "3 different approaches" but don't qualify for 61.65 because they are all the same "kind"

ILS 24R
LOC 24R
LOC BC 24R 

are "three different kinds of approaches" and do qualify

[MMsuper21]

42 minutes ago, toto said:

If the approach requires DME, then you’ll need a DME receiver, but many approaches don’t require DME.

Don’t get me wrong - an approach-certified GPS definitely opens up a lot of options for you. But you can fly IFR without it. 

I’m surprised that your CFII refuses to offer instrument instruction without a GPS. Training on “traditional” approaches using installed equipment is a favorite for instructors doing checkride prep, and can be a point of focus for examiners. 

Most CFII’s around here are younger accumulating hours for airlines, doing non GPS seems too much of a hassle. 
 

I do like the GNX 375 for the build in ads in.
 

Less cables and space since I can get rid of the stratus 3. I like the GNC355 for the radio functionality but it will be cheaper since I can sell the stratus esg and 3.

Plus I get a gps source for an engine monitor and G5/GI275 in the future. 

[toto]

3 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Most CFII’s around here are younger accumulating hours for airlines, doing non GPS seems too much of a hassle.

That’s ironic, since airlines are generally flying airways and ILS

 

[Joshua Blackh4t]

I'm looking at the gnx375, as far as i read it, it has a backup ahrs in it that can display on an aera 660 in a panel dock. 

Handy backup just in case. 

[0TreeLemur]

I'll be contrarian.   A 430W can be had for considerably less these days if you buy it right.  Coupled with your Appareo ADS-B transponder and Stratus + iPad you have the lowest price point for a very capable IFR panel.

[carusoam]

MMs,

You are bumping into an area that is kind of unique…

you might want to clear up why you are training for the IR… what is it YOU want?

Because, the young guns heading towards their ATP might be thinking you are on their same path….

 

If you are more like I was… ADF, VOR and ILS was all I had….

My first IR training went on hold because there was no MS, and  even crummy insight was hard to find…

Honest quick discussion with potential CFIIs…

“Can I earn my IR, with this panel, with you as my CFII?”

Great honest question…

My biggest problem was my compass was having difficulty with a magnetized roll cage…

MS has answers for that as well… degaussing… 

 

As far as DME goes… it wasn’t the most popular device in the panel for most GA planes… and has been replaced by GPS distance for the most part…

nice to have… now or after you have the IR…

Have two independent ways to get to the ground…. What was once called precision approaches…

The ILS will do it… a WAAS GPS approach will do it…

This is a safety issue… descend to within 200’ AGL to find the bottom of the clouds before landing…

You will be spending a fair amount of time over the clouds… and many miles of clouds you fly over can get close to the ground… and stay there a long time…

You may need to descend through them for a landing…

Expect your favorite nav box to go dark one day…

So have a good plan B for that…

 

Briefly… many modern GPS navigators, also have VOR, and ILS, in their same box… like a G430W(aas)

 

+1 for second AI… because the TC has proven to be disappointing too often…

Being able to fly in the system is a great safety enhancement…

PP thoughts only, not  a CFII…

Best regards,

-a-