Instrument Placement Advice for a New Panel (yet another...)

[Seymour]

We decided to upgrade to a GTN 650txi (GPS/NAV/COM), Two GI275s (ADI and HSI), a GNC 355A (GPS/COM) with the GFC 500 Autopilot for our 1965 M20E.   The problem is that we've got a tight panel and we use an iPad on a RAM claw mount for Approach plates (see before pics).  It partially blocks visibility to several instruments if they're configured in a typical 6-pack.

I'm always impressed with the comments and expertise on proposed panel layouts here so I've attached our plans.   What do you think?

Thanks!

Background Information:

Several factors have driven this large AMU spend on a new Garmin panel:
   1.  Desire to install an autopilot and enjoy it before Avgas restrictions, Health issues or Insurance costs terminate our flying.
   2.  Trutrak, Dynon AP delays for Mooney.
   3.  End-of-Life for our Garmin GNS 480 GPS/NAV/COM.  (If it dies and we don't have a spare, it'd be 6 months waiting for parts and an opening at a shop since Garmin won't repair it).
   4.  Loss of features or finger-pointing when inter-operability issues arise in non-homogenous branded systems. (eg. Garmin AP with <insert company name> avionics).

Several other decisions have driven a GI275 (rather than a G3x) solution.
   1.  AMUs
   2.  We're keeping the vacuum for the step, so we'll keep our vacuum AI as a backup.   (There's not enough panel for all those round gauges, so we're picking and choosing.)
   3.  Awesome features.

[kortopates]

Honestly, I'd suggest using a mini ipad in landscape to enable seeing the standard 6-pack.  I personally would't give priority to iPad and move everything around it. 

Don't think I'd keep the second CDI with the GI-275 that can toggle between the both radios  NAV and GPS as well as give a bearing pointer to the secondary nav - perhaps put the backup vacuum AI where the second CDI is now to get a better 6 pack layout. 

[Seymour]

Thanks Paul!  Good suggestions.

Can someone who uses an iPad mini in landscape mode on the yoke comment on readability?   My co-owner prefers to view the approach plates in portrait so I may be locked in but we'll borrow one and try it out. 

[cbarry]

With the layout and equipment you describe, it appears you will not have a secondary nav/comm to drive the full amount of data to the secondary indicator—unless you have a switch to toggle the data from the GTN650 between the G275 HSI…and the secondary cdi/loc/glideslope. Of course the 355 might  drive a CDI, but I don’t think it’ll drive the vertical indicator or ground based nav aid  indications.

It might make sense to take a look at what you could layout if the left panel was a blank slate and then see if it merits proceeding with a new left panel cut.

[Seymour]

15 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Stick a Steelie ball mount on the center of the clock face on your yoke and you can rotate your iPad mini however you like

Brilliant!  That's an excellent solution that I'll quickly be investigating.   

5 minutes ago, cbarry said:

take a look at what you could layout if the left panel was a blank slate and then see if it merits proceeding with a new left panel cut.

Yes, we ARE doing a new left panel and have a blank slate to work with.    The line drawing shows my proposed layout with a blank slate so feel free to comment on moves.

[cbarry]

5 hours ago, Seymour said:

Brilliant!  That's an excellent solution that I'll quickly be investigating.   

Yes, we ARE doing a new left panel and have a blank slate to work with.    The line drawing shows my proposed layout with a blank slate so feel free to comment on moves.

I would consider:  placing the instruments:  bottom row from left to right:  clock/CO det,  AI (vac version): GI275 HSI, VSI

                                                                           Top row:  Airspeed, GI275 AI, Alt.  
This way your 275s stack as is customary.  I bet you could position the IPad to not block the 275 HSI like others have mentioned —horizontally, etc.

[carusoam]

There are several locations around the the cockpit I have seen MSers use…

The big iPad blocking the instruments is a driving force….

The big iPad in dual screen mode… is it important to you?

The mini is great in single screen mode… and much more compact…

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Warren]

If you buy the ADAHRS versions of the GI-275’s they meet the requirements for the six pack, including backup attitude indicator, and all the six pack gages can be removed.  I would stack the GI-275’s just left of the control yoke, keep two backup gages if you want (AI and Altimeter or airspeed) to the left of the GI-275’s.  Keep anything else to the right but plan to have an ipad mount that covers the gages right of the control yoke during normal operation.  The ipad can easily be moved if you need/want access to the other backup gages.  This would allow a full size ipad and would be great for approach plates as well as moving map purposes.

[David Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Warren said:

If you buy the ADAHRS versions of the GI-275’s they meet the requirements for the six pack, including backup attitude indicator, and all the six pack gages can be removed.  I would stack the GI-275’s just left of the control yoke, keep two backup gages if you want (AI and Altimeter or airspeed) to the left of the GI-275’s.  Keep anything else to the right but plan to have an ipad mount that covers the gages right of the control yoke during normal operation.  The ipad can easily be moved if you need/want access to the other backup gages.  This would allow a full size ipad and would be great for approach plates as well as moving map purposes.

I think the STC for installing GI275s as a primary ADI and HSI limits their placement, HSI directly below the ADI.  Might be mistaken but there is enough fine print that requires someone that has access and can interpret. Keep your backups, I'm glad I did.  Cutting a new panel, you have the opportunity to bring the instrument arrangement into the '70s.  No external switch is needed to go between Nav 1 & 2, that is handled by the 275. Get a 750 instead of the 650 and you would not even look at an iPad except to study an approach chart.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I had the exact same problem, the solution for me was to mount the I pad lower. I noticed you are using the lowest connection point  if you use the one in the middle of the I pad holder it will likely solve your issue, it did for me.  I was worried it would conflict with my legs when I did it but I still had plenty of leg clearance.  I put in a Garmin 355 and a 275 HSI last year and love them!

[Skates97]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:48 AM, cbarry said:

 Of course the 355 might  drive a CDI, but I don’t think it’ll drive the vertical indicator or ground based nav aid  indications.

The 355 is just GPS/COM, no NAV so nothing from ground based nav aids. It does show vertical for LPV approaches and the psuedo-vertical for LNAV.

 

On 3/6/2022 at 7:23 PM, Seymour said:

   2.  We're keeping the vacuum for the step, so we'll keep our vacuum AI as a backup.   (There's not enough panel for all those round gauges, so we're picking and choosing.)
 

Get @takair's electric step conversion and ditch the vacuum system.

http://flightenhancements.com/auto-step.html

[Seymour]

21 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

I think the STC for installing GI275s as a primary ADI and HSI limits their placement, HSI directly below the ADI. 

Well, that's certainly a critical piece of information that affects the panel.   I've contacted my Garmin installer with that inquiry.   Thanks for the tip off.  

22 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Might be mistaken but there is enough fine print that requires someone that has access and can interpret.

I didn't fully understand this comment until I called the Garmin Panel Mounted Aviation support and asked about the STC restriction.   They said "it's in the Installation Manual that only your certified Garmin installer can access.  He can contact Garmin Field Service and ask the question."    Oh, OK...

On 3/9/2022 at 7:46 AM, Warren said:

If you buy the ADAHRS versions of the GI-275’s they meet the requirements for the six pack, including backup attitude indicator, and all the six pack gages can be removed.

...and yes, we are getting the ADAHRS version so that it's possible to remove the other steam gauges.   We've decided to keep them for backup.   The downsides are maintenance, a more cluttered (distracting) panel, weight and the gyro's noise.   However, the upside is that we're covered for all sorts of failures.   If we find them too distracting they can be covered and if they fail, they can be marked in-op.   We'll use noise cancelling headsets and I'll go on a diet to loose the extra pounds to compensate.   

18 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Get @takair's electric step conversion and ditch the vacuum system.

Thanks, we did consider it.   ...but never priced it. 

 

 

 

[jamesm]

Something to think about, and just my opinion... I don't know that I would put the gmc507 (control head for GFC 500's autopilot)  in the middle of the the avionics stack. since it's the shallowest in depth  of all your avionics. Space maybe a challenge now and in the future avionics expansion

I  have a 67'C  with 2 G5's gnc255 & gnc355 PMA8000bt Audio panel

please

excuse the picture crookedness and the not tighty  glare shield

just my opinion

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, jamesm said:

Something to think about, and just my opinion... I don't know that I would put the gmc507 (control head for GFC 500's autopilot)  in the middle of the the avionics stack. since it's the shallowest in depth  of all your avionics. Space can be a challenge now and in the future avionics and other.

I  have a 67'C  with 2 G5's gnc255 & gnc355 PMA8000bt Audio panel

pleas excuse the picture crookedness and the not tighty  glare shield

just my opinion

 

I agree, I would put it at the top, and did in my plane.

[Seymour]

16 hours ago, jamesm said:

I would put the gmc507 (control head for GFC 500's autopilot)  in the middle of the the avionics stack. since it's the shallowest in depth  of all your avionics. Space maybe a challenge now and in the future avionics expansion

The idea was to keep the GTN up higher for better viewing, readability and manual manipulation in turbulence.   However, the avionics installer made the same comment about the depth.    Do you find it works well at the top of the stack?    ...and no issues with the viewing or manipulating the GPS at it's position?   

 

[Warren]

I like the GPS as high as possible as viewing the screen is usually more than a quick glance.  It is harder and more distracting to look at the GPS and/or make changes to flight plans, look for traffic,… when it is low.

The GMC507 on the bottom works great for me.  The knobs are easy to adjust and a quick glance locates them.  Once you find the knob, your focus is on the G5, GI275 or other display as they are the effective display for the autopilot while making adjustments.

[rbp]

I put the GFC head at the top of the center stack so I can rest my fingers on the top of the glare shield and so it is in my field of vision

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, Seymour said:

The idea was to keep the GTN up higher for better viewing, readability and manual manipulation in turbulence.   However, the avionics installer made the same comment about the depth.    Do you find it works well at the top of the stack?    ...and no issues with the viewing or manipulating the GPS at it's position?   

 

It's worked fine for me at the top of the stack, easy to just reach over and turn the knobs.

I think the short bodies A-E have a shorter panel so not as much room in the stack as the mid-long bodies. Somebody correct me if that's not accurate. Having the GNC355 toward the bottom hasn't been an issue for me, it doesn't require tilting my head down, just a glance over even when using foggles.

[jamesm]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:27 AM, Seymour said:

Do you find it works well at the top of the stack? 

This kind of a hotly debated topic around here whether autopilot control head is on the  top or bottom of the stack.  Just my personal opinion and preference why mine is on top of the stack.

1) Our older mid 60'  model Mooney's have welded cluster at the top of the radio stack causing some dead space that can't be used for very  much other than switches buttons something with shallow depth until go about 2" or so down the panel. then you start getting depth. I believe later model Mooney have offset the radio stack to avoid this problem and  to maximize panel space. You can tell by relation between the Throttle / Mixture / Prop control placement versus the left edge of the  radio stack. So  probably not a problem if you are redoing the whole panel. which can added a bunch more cost. you can save if you  find IA willing to do it under their supervision.

2) There is a potential vertigo trap having  GMC507 (GFC Control Head) at the bottom of the stack.

3) The large Avionics and large Aerospace companies have invested tons of money into flight deck research in human factors when designing the first glass flight deck layout until now  and for the future flight deck layout. This covers things such as to placement avionics,  displays, switches,  buttons and anything else that maybe on flight deck.  While the large aerospace  company can't  agree on side stick or yoke for flight controls, they do agree on flight deck  layout for the most part.  They place the Autopilot at the top of stack. at least ones that I have seen.

So far it works great, though I going through instrument training and may not be the best person to ask. Just look at other people flight deck pictures to what you like.

Again just my opinion.

Hope this helps.

James '67C

 

[ArtVandelay]

Vertigo with the AP head at bottom stack should be a non issue.
1. The AP is flying the plane.
2. You don’t need to stare at it, a quick glance to pick the proper button to select is all you need…the G5/G3X will display the AP annunciations.
3. You don’t need to move your head, just your eyes…now if installed in the right stack might be a problem.

[Seymour]

5 hours ago, jamesm said:

The large Avionics and large Aerospace companies have invested tons of money into flight deck research in human factors when designing the first glass flight deck layout until now  and for the future flight deck layout. This covers things such as to placement avionics,  displays, switches,  buttons and anything else that maybe on flight deck.  While the large aerospace  company can't  agree on side stick or yoke for flight controls, they do agree on flight deck  layout for the most part.  They place the Autopilot at the top of stack. at least ones that I have seen.

Interesting comment and seems pertinent to the other discussion in this thread:   Position of the HSI in relation to the ADI. 

5 hours ago, jamesm said:

Our older mid 60'  model Mooney's have welded cluster at the top of the radio stack causing some dead space that can't be used for very  much other than switches buttons something with shallow depth until go about 2" or so down the panel. then you start getting depth.

...which explains why I have a bank of circuit breakers up there now.  2" is an abundance of space in this stack; hopefully it'll all fit. 

Thanks for the perspective.

[Seymour]

And the Winner is.......    Me!     I'm getting a new panel.   It's Awards night.   ...and the Thank You's  below are just as boring (but important because they've shaped my decisions).

So I'd like to start by thanking my parents for approving that first discovery flight when I was thirteen...  

Thanks to Paul @kortopates, for suggesting the mini iPad, enabling a landscape swivel and sticking with a standard 6-pack.   My partner has purchased a mini iPad 6 (and I'll likely do the same.

Special Thanks to @David Lloyd to have our avionics installer check the STC.   His interpretation is that we'd have two choices;  either the original shotgun pattern (where we could place the GI275's wherever we'd like)  OR  a Standard T pattern (where the  ADAHARS HSI GI275 must be located directly below the ADAHRS ADI GI275 and then all other steam gauges can be placed wherever we'd like because they're unnecessary as @Warren described).   This created more difficulty; we wanted a 'clean' looking 6 pack style (aka 'Standard T'), but my partner wanted easy access to the OBS knob on the HSI and was still concerned about the visibility to it over the iPad.   More on the solution down below....  However, there's barely enough space for the 650 so the 750 was out of the question.

Thank you to @Utah20Gflyer - We're using an adjustable RAM mount arm connected to a RAM diamond mount ball screwed to the yoke plate to enable a lower position.

Special Thanks to Richard @Skates97 for pointing me back to the electric step.   Although we liked having the vacuum AI as backup, we decided that we'd never pay to have it or the vacuum repaired, replaced or maintained.  In fact, my partner wanted it covered or hidden (behind the iPad, of course) so that it's insidious failure mode wouldn't be a confusing factor when in IMC.   After pricing the electric step, we decided to install the wiring and connections now while we've got the panel and plane opened up like a tuna can. 

Special Thanks to @jamesm for raising the human factors research that has gone into the preferred placement of the ADI over the HSI.   That, and the numerous CFIs that highly recommended it convinced me that I'd want to do my IR training with a 'Standard T'.  I also noted an entry in a different thread that talked about re-sale value of a non-standard instrument config.   You were also correct that the shortest depth unit, the GMC 507 autopilot controller, had to be placed at the top of the radio stack in order to fit the remaining components, as Richard noted.

Thanks to @takair for offering to fly the electric step to the installer.   (Yes, I ended up shipping it back down to him so that he can wire connections).

So, I get my entire panel upgrade for HALF PRICE !   Unfortunately, it means my co-owner (who is paying the other half) has a strong say in the instrument placement, and he does not want the HSI below the ADI (but to the right of it instead).    We solved the issue by throwing AMUs at it.   We will have the Standard T configuration (ADI over HSI) but added a third GI275 as an MFD (that can view the HSI page) that will be placed to the right of the ADI.   This also allows us to remove the backup CDI making a better spot for the CO detector on the right side.   Also note that the TOGO switch has been added to the panel, the Suction gage has been removed, and the Smart Glide switch put in its place next to the 406 ELT switch.   ...and the AP head moved to the top of the radio stack.

Does anyone have 3 GI275s configured as primary ADI,  HSI and MFD?   We have several questions about that configuration that I'll enter in some GI275 related thread...

[Andy95W]

I still wonder why you don’t arrange the airspeed, VSI, and turn coordinator more in line with the “standard T” configuration (which has been the standard for more than 50 years for good reason).

[Seymour]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I still wonder why you don’t arrange the airspeed, VSI, and turn coordinator more in line with the “standard T” configuration (which has been the standard for more than 50 years for good reason).

Thanks Andy, reasonable question.

However, the first question to answer is "Why don't you rip out the ASI, VSI and TC because they're already a backup to a backup"?    Yes, they might be just clutter.  ...but we've heard of studies that show that reaction to a dial is sometimes quicker than to a tape.   ...so we decided to keep the low maintenance round gages because they can still add value.

Now for your question:  Why change the position from the standard?   Three answers:

   1.  Which instruments are the most difficult to pick out off the 'busy' GI275 ADI ?    We think it's the VSI.  The VSI also provides a 'leading indicator' rather than the ASI which is a lagging indicator of pitch (and easier to pick off the tape).      ...so we provided the VSI the most prominent position still available, the top left.  

   2. If you take a peek at our original shotgun panel, the scan was pretty scattered.  The VSI is lower left, but it was quite far away.   ...and the TC was in the upper right, which is my partner's preferred position for the HSI.   Since he is used to looking right for the TC and left for the VSI, we placed the TC under the HSI.   

  3.  ...and that leaves the lower left for the ASI.  

So the short answer is that it's the most similar to what we're used to.    We've 'finalized' the panel layout, but I'd still be interested in your thoughts.

[Andy95W]

Seymour- I agree 100% with your decision to retain the old analog instruments.  Not only are they an excellent back-up (just in case), but like you said they are easier to see, read, and react to.  Additionally- if your GI-275s were to fail, you could still fly your airplane VFR, if you keep your altimeter instead of the VSI.

The “standard T” layout is for IFR work.  It makes the instrument scan much easier, which is why the FAA standardized it before 1970.  When it comes time to sell the airplane, any potential buyer will immediately notice the odd layout and budget money to change it.

But hey, its not my airplane!  You guys should certainly do whatever feels right to you.  I got my instrument rating 30 years ago in a 172 with the instruments scattered all over the panel, and my first Mooney was the same.  But I felt a good bit of relief when I converted that airplane to the “normal” layout.

The picture below is a screenshot from the FAAs Instrument Flying Handbook: