Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone

[DXB]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:13 PM, redbaron1982 said:

Of course I already talked with the MSC (FlightLevel at Norwood) and asked how come that they didn't find this on the prebuy, he said that is not something common for a prebuy inspection, but anyway, I don't like that answer. The same MSC that 20 days ago made a prebuy report without any indication of corrosion at all, now it came with this. 

While it gives me pause to sling mud at any aviation business, I think you may benefit from settling your tab and getting away from that particular shop as quickly as you can, even if it requires a ferry permit. PM me if you want to discuss further.  Though inspecting the area of concern should be high on the list of priorities for a prebuy, there's little upside in your going after them in this situation.  Even if their assessment turns out to be spot on, you will want the repair done by someone else.  FWIW, thoughts on Airmods in Robbinsville NJ on this forum have been mixed, but they do have deep experience with Mooney structural repair work.   

[Becca]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Ummm...isn't @M20Doc at Tri-City both an MSC and Certified Cirrus Center?.......

If so, I would be curious to hear from @M20Doc a comparison between the requirements of being both, the type of factory support and training he gets from both, the type of quality control, etc.  I think that would be a really interesting thread.

[philiplane]

In the past, I have set up, and gotten approval to be both a Cirrus Service Center, and a Mooney Service Center. Once those are in place, it's somewhat on autopilot. People come and go, you gain, and lose, experienced people all the time. Just like any other business. But we are up against a generational shift here. There are very few people coming into this business, and more guys are retiring, and taking their knowledge with them. There are some extremely knowledgeable independent mechanics, who are hard to find, and take only the interesting work they want to do. 

To be blunt, Mooney owners are low on the list because over the years they have earned a reputation for cheapness. Now, here we are, and as these planes age, they need the kind of care only highly experienced guys can provide. The same guys who've been chewed out for charging too much to take care of a ten year old Mooney. Now these same guys are expected to find and fix everything on a 40 year old Mooney, at the discount price expected by the owner who bought cheap, and expects to have his 40 year old Mooney look and perform like a brand new one, at a fraction of the price. An older plane costs multiples more to maintain than a newer one. 

It borders on insanity.

[1980Mooney]

An MSC is only as good as the people working for it. I think what’s missing and not said here is that the General aviation Industry has lost a lot of experience and talent. Let’s face it everyone is getting older. A&P’s that joined the industry when it was in its growth phase of the 70s are retiring or have retired.  
 

My first A&P gained his experience working at Cessna in the 1950s. He was already in his late 60s when he first starting working on my plane in the late 90s. He was a wizard repairing anything aluminum and steel. My next A&P early on saw the growth potential of Cirrus and became one of the first certified service centers. His shop has become basically exclusive Cirrus. Last year he was full up with Cirrus work and didn’t have the staff to do my scheduled Annual. I was already out of annual at that point so I had to find another. The A&P I used this year was less than satisfactory Due to lack of experience on Mooney’s. I had to constantly check on them. I found them performing unnecessary work and wasting hours troubleshooting why the starter would not turn over after they caused the damage by breaking the wire off my starter solenoid. I found them removing my ignition switch when that was not the problem. Then the next day after everything was reinstalled my ignition was shorted out. 
 

This industry is not attracting new talent. And there is a lot of service/supplier consolidation going on due to owners retiring. There was a topic on Dawley Welding and Exhaust last year. Sold to Tailwind and the shop closed, everyone terminated. This crap about having to fly halfway across the country to get fuel tanks sealed is just crap. The founder/owner of Rocket Engineering is in his 70’s and still working supporting the Missile and Rocket. But I have no illusions about support in the future. Might the business name continue? …maybe but once the founder is gone so much know how will be lost. 
 

So this is why Mooney owners have to get deeply involved in and hover over any work or Annual that an A&P performs. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Guest]

7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Ummm...isn't @M20Doc at Tri-City both an MSC and Certified Cirrus Center?.......

Correct, and Diamond as well, but Cirrus is our largest client group.

Clarence

[redbaron1982]

I don't see a huge issue with aircraft owners having to get really involved in the maintenance of an aircraft, on the contrary, it should result in better safety. A pilot who knows the ins and outs of his aircraft should (in theory) be more prepare to handle unplanned situations in flight.

I used to be a yachtmaster several years ago, and maintenance on sailboats (although much easier) is also a owners task most of the time.

I don't see GA growing so much to be mass market, as it might have been expected in the 70s. Generation after generation the technical knowledge of the average people has been declining, and I don't buy that flying an aircraft is like driving a car. Anyone can drive a car but I'm sure most people cannot (safely) fly an airplane. And is not a matter of ability, but a matter of interest. Most people who drives a car, they don't care about the car or it's mechanics, or why it's important the camber, toe and caster of the wheels. They just don't need that knowledge to drive a car. But you do need that kind of knowledge to fly (safely) an airplane.

Haven't said that, I do agree with the comments that the lack of expertise in many shops, even "official" shops, does not help in getting more people involved into aviation.

My case in particular, if the worst scenario comes true, and the aircraft need a major repair that does not make sense to perform relative to the total value of the aircraft, I'm most likely never going to buy an airplane again. And most likely it will result in me leaving aviation altogether (I don't trust rental aircraft to do long XC flights, and they are mostly C172 or PA28 that are almost as slow as a car!).

And if this happens, would be, in part, due to a MSC that was not profficient in Mooneys.

[corn_flake]

@redbaron1982  

Hanging in there.  Gather from the info you shared so far, I deduce the purchase price is around $180k.  It's unthinkable to write such amount off and walk away.  On the other hand, It is also unlikely that the repair cost would take up significant portion of the purchase price.  Let's get those pictures to a shop with actual Mooney knowledge.  I'm sure you will be flying with us in no time.  

Best.  

[Marauder]

Over my 31 years of ownership, I’ve been to several MSCs. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, those visits were warm and fuzzy. You felt good about them working on it. You didn’t feel so good when you got the bill.

Not so much today. It’s not a good sign when you need to learn who at the MSC to ask for to work on your plane. I think it was Philiplane who mentioned the skill level out there. I think this is a good portion of the problem.

To the OP, if this were my plane, I’d ask to have the plane buttoned up and fly it out on a ferry permit to a shop that can do an thorough inspection and repair of this corrosion.


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[GeeBee]

I have to say the OP mention of sail boats, along with MikeOH's concerns about GA and demands upon GA owners got to thinking, because I am in boats as well.

Sail boats have increasingly become a tough sell. Why? You have to know too much. You have to do too much. 

My boat is docked behind my house. If I want to go for an after dinner cruise with my wife, I don't want to spend an hour rigging it, and 2 hours flaking it down after the cruise. I want to do a 5 minute safety check, throw the lines, turn the key and go. I don't want to spend my Saturdays re-rigging halyards and tightening deck plates. I send my boat once a year to a competent shop to haul out, change the anodes, change the drive oil and boom, I'm good for another year. Indeed in the past few years with the advent of 300hp+ outboards even 50 footers are being outboard powered. Why? Disposable motors that are low upkeep. Motor goes bad, you pull it off the transom and replace it with a few hours labor. 

Sure, you're more "nautical" if you do sail boats, and the market has spoken. Good luck selling your sail boat!

All this is a round about way of saying I agree with MikeOH. If we keep making demands upon owners beyond being a competent pilot along with reasonable ownership demands, we're going to end up like sail boats.

[JWJR]

Pre Buy on a Mooney

Tubular steel- inspect for corrosion
Spar caps- inspect for corrosion
Tanks- inspect for leaks
Engine - borescope cylinders- cut filter- oil screen if applicable
Gear actuator
Propeller - hub- governor
Engine mount. Inspect
Exhaust - inspect

All the above can be done in 17 hours!

Ok there are lots of other things to put on the report on such as condition of gear pucks - electric trim operation and on and on

A pre purchase inspection should be focused on searching for corrosion, the engine , tanks
and gear.

A pre buy should look for deal killers not a list of forecasted maintenance for the next few years.

My humble advice- consult with an attorney and hire a subject matter expert to testify that a pre purchase inspection SHOULD OF FOUND THE CORROSION - Why because they should of. 100% No excuses!
You paid them to not get F#%ked
You got F#%ked. It’s just that simple

It’s an open and shut case- should require minimal billed time. Hopefully you can have it resolved out of court.

Best of luck!


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[redbaron1982]

Here the pictures of the corrossion... main take away for me? It was easily visible from an inspection panel... hard to miss.

It does look like exfolliation/intergranular, which is bad, but the extension is not great, and after cleaning doesn't look like much material was lost...

 

 

[redbaron1982]

BTW: I've shared this information with Soutwest Aviation to see what hey have to say. The current MSC said that if they don't feel comfortable doing the repair suggested by Mooney, or if I don't feel comfortable with them doing it, they would help me getting a ferry permit to fly it to another shop.

[JWJR]

Looks better cleaned up however that’s not down to clean aluminum yet. I agree 100% that it’s just a matter of removing the inspection panel. Have they acknowledged their culpable for not catching it during the pre-buy?


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[JWJR]

Another small thing to take into account with this being missed during the pre buy is that let’s say five or ten years down the road you decide to sell. Ok your phone rings and at some point during the conversation the potential buyer asks if the plane has had any corrosion issues. Well you pause for a second then tell the story of when you bought it back in late 2021
The potential buyer immediately says ok thanks I’ll be in touch if I have more questions …. then Click!
Potential buyers don’t like damage history. They run from Corrosion. If you knew there was corrosion would you of passed on this plane?

Once you get the estimate give them a chance to make it right. We all make mistakes ,however don’t allow them to minimize this one or BS you that pulling that panel is not part of a prebuy. They must have some integrity as they did not find the corrosion during the annual and say whoops and just button that panel back up and say nothing at all about it to you.


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[redbaron1982]

55 minutes ago, JWJR said:

Looks better cleaned up however that’s not down to clean aluminum yet. I agree 100% that it’s just a matter of removing the inspection panel. Have they acknowledged their culpable for not catching it during the pre-buy?


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They said that it was really hard to see, because they had to look "back and down". I don't agree, for me a 360 inspection in each panel would be standard. I could accept to using a boroscope to get into corners that are not visible (if there is any) but this you can tell that was just catch in the annual by taking a picture with a cell phone.

Honestly, regarding the other point of the impact on the resale price, I don't care "much". I'm not planning to sell it anytime soon, and I'd expect any potential owner to understand that it was correctly fixed and, as a learning experience, the airplane was extensively inspected every year, and treated against corrotion (that's what I plan to do anyway, for my own safety).

I'm not saying this is going to be my first and only airplane, but hey, except things go *extremely* well on my professional life I'm not going get a Ovation or Acclaim anytime soon. For all what I've read, M20J is almost as best as you can get in terms of bang for you buck! Maybe a M20F is better in that sense (I understand almost same performance with considerable less price).

[JWJR]

The M20J is an awesome plane known for speed and efficiency. Once this is resolved you will enjoy it for sure. As for the corrosion and re-sale value scenario …I was trying to assist you in quantifying the damages of the error/oversight @ pre-buy. At some point I assume you will state your case to the shop manager or a judge if no satisfaction with the shop. Keep us posted when you get the estimate. Thanks


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[A64Pilot]

I’m not on here a whole lot and therefore miss a lot of threads until they become very mature, like this one.

I’ve been an A&P since the mid 80’s and an IA since about 2002 or so.

I have said repeatedly on this forum that if your buying an airplane and if you having an honest good pre-buy done, make it an Annual once of course your pretty sure your buying the thing, if it was a competent  pre-buy, very little work should be required to turn it into an Annual, so little money difference, If a bunch more mooney is wanted, that ought to tell you something about the pre-buy.

Repeatedly I have have people come out of the wood work telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about, that an Annual is just a rather poor inspection, can be bought for a case of beer, but a pre-buy is the real honest good hard look.

And yet these stories keep popping up, where extensive corrosion or hidden damage is found during an Annual that was missed by a Pre-buy, and sadly many seem of the opinion that the shop or individual should be sued for missing it on a pre-buy.

I’ve stated again and again on here that you have no legal recourse with a pre-buy. Why? Because a pre-buy doesn’t exist, it’s not an FAA required or recognized inspection, and it’s not defined by the FAA of course, so I can conduct a pre-buy having never seen the airplane or glance at it as it taxis by or whatever. There are no standards or definition, you don’t even have to be an A&P to conduct a pre-buy.

Unless you have some form of legal contract that lays out what a pre-buy consists of, your out of luck.

An Annual is different, it’s both required and defined by the FAA, as an IA if I sign off an Annual on an aircraft that wasn’t airworthy at the time of the inspection, we’ll then it’s likely you have legal recourse against me, and as a min if you complain I’ve got some explaining to do to the FAA. 

[DXB]

3 hours ago, JWJR said:

A pre buy should look for deal killers not a list of forecasted maintenance for the next few years.

My humble advice- consult with an attorney and hire a subject matter expert to testify that a pre purchase inspection SHOULD OF FOUND THE CORROSION - Why because they should of. 100% No excuses!
You paid them to not get F#%ked
You got F#%ked. It’s just that simple
 

I couldn't agree more on the first point - I wish someone had taught me that back when I was a wet behind the ears 70 hour pilot and buying my Mooney - I would do a much better job managing the prebuy if I bought another plane now. Unlike an annual, there is no objective standard for what a prebuy entails, and so what it becomes ultimately falls on the buyer's shoulders. A good shop would of course educate the inexperienced buyer and act in their best interest, but I wouldn't count on it.  Many shops may merely produce a pretty report but gloss over key issues like this in the actual inspection.  

Regarding an attorney, it might be worth figuring out exactly the severity of the issue and the cost of remediation before finding a lawyer.  Multiple other corrosion spots may be lurking undiscovered, or alternately the corrosion may be isolated and not as severe as represented.  Once you lawyer up, something tells me that this particular shop owner, who is a bit of a magnet for dissatisfaction and drama, is going to dig heels and fight rather than seek the path of least resistance even if its in his own interest. That mess hardly seems worth the trouble if the issue turns out to be minor.  It may still be a strong consideration at the other end of the spectrum if the plane is totaled by corrosion.

At the end of the day, the OP wants a Mooney to fly, not a bunch of legal drama.

*EDIT - just saw the new pixs posted above.  That looks pretty obvious (and also pretty terrible to my untrained eye)  

Edited January 10, 2022 by DXB

[Mcstealth]

On 1/9/2022 at 11:19 AM, Becca said:

I know of several MSC's that are under entirely new ownership from the original MSC owner (Dugosh, for example, right?).  Was Mooney involved in re-certify them or approving the transfer?

David is still there as he bought the business. Fairly sure it was a no-brainer for Mooney. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Mcstealth

[Mcstealth]

On 1/9/2022 at 11:25 AM, MooneyMitch said:

I do believe the person that oversaw MSC’s no longer works for Mooney.  Maybe peek in Dugosh hangar for him these days .

Edit:   I stand corrected.  Thank you Debbie 

No, he started his own shop a couple of hangers down. 

[MooneyMitch]

3 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

No, he started his own shop a couple of hangers down. 

That's so terrific!  Would you please enlighten us on his business?  Website,etc?  Thank you.

[JWJR]

I respectfully disagree and so does my attorney sitting across from me right now.
A prebuy is exactly that a prebuy inspection. You may be an expert in FAA policy however a judge is not concerned with FAA policy at all. It’s as simple as it sounds. He paid to find deficiencies in the aircraft. They overlooked a SUBSTANTIAL one. Kinda like malpractice or a structural defect missed during a home inspection . We all know it was negligent and any subject matter expert will attest to the same. You can do a legal annual with an oil change ,compression check and verified AD compliance. The judges I know are concerned with making things right ..not paper contracts. If the work order says prebuy it is inferred that it is done to protect the buyer from major issues/expense. Unfortunately I’m related to a judge and spend lots of time with attorneys ( playing cards) and the ones I’ve mentioned this scenario to all said it’s a simple open and shut case for buyer. Now all that being said I believe that’s basically what he was trying to do … turn it into an annual. I don’t think anyone here with a straight face could say missing this during a pre-buy is not outrageous and unacceptable.


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[corn_flake]

I love a good legal drama as much the next guy.  . But, it is not my style to sue shop/AP/IA when things go south.  Talk to the shop owner to see what they would be willing to do to make it right.   With that said, I would not be shy sharing my experience publicly for anyone to read, including the shop/AP/IA's name.  

In another word, I don't want their money. I want a sincere apology for F#$king things up!!  And I want to know what they are willing to change and improve so bone head mistake doesn't happen to the next guy.  

 

[redbaron1982]

3 minutes ago, corn_flake said:

I love a good legal drama as much the next guy.  . But, it is not my style to sue shop/AP/IA when things go south.  Talk to the shop owner to see what they would be willing to do to make it right.   With that said, I would not be shy sharing my experience publicly for anyone to read, including the shop/AP/IA's name.  

In another word, I don't want their money. I want a sincere apology for F#$king things up!!  And I want to know what they are willing to change and improve so bone head mistake doesn't happen to the next guy.  

 

The point is that so far, the shop is saying that they did a descent prebuy, and this was something not be caught in a prebuy.

[JWJR]

Did they remove that inspection panel ( the one the pics are from) during did the pre-buy?


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