flyboy0681 Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Baggage door opened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Never heard ofnthe baggage door opening on a go around after 20 minutes' flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, Hank said: Never heard ofnthe baggage door opening on a go around after 20 minutes' flying. That struck me as strange too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcconnaha Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Good reminder to check that it’s locked every time you enter the airplane.  I brief my passengers to double check that as well.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, bmcconnaha said: Good reminder to check that it’s locked every time you enter the airplane.  I brief my passengers to double check that as well.  Question is, did it contribute to the tragedy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcconnaha Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Just now, flyboy0681 said: Question is, did it contribute to the tragedy. Right, I’m sure the startle effect didn’t help things.  Not sure why it was climbing slow before the door was open.  This could be one of those accidents where there is a few layers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 It does match peoples assessment of the adsb data  - he was really slow for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Wait, this was a turbocharged J??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 Anyone ever pinned one right above stall speed, full power, backside of the power curve with gear and flaps? Â I doubt it will climb or accelerate. Â Maybe spooked by the baggage opening? Â It would be slow with high AOA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 13, 2022 Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 On 12/26/2021 at 5:42 PM, 1980Mooney said: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a43720&lat=30.276&lon=-81.819&zoom=17.1&showTrace=2021-12-26&trackLabels Flight Track Log ✈ N3707H 26-Dec-2021 (KHEG-KHEG) - FlightAware Flying incredibly slow. Winds were light at nearby recording stations at time of crash - ADSB-Exchange and FlightAware shows taking off and climbing at 56 kts and stalling at 51 kts. The whole flight was conducted at low ground speeds. Highest ground speed reported was 116kts and that was in level flight. Even at 7nm from the field he was <100kts. I shoot to be at gear speed (105kts) by 2nm out or abeam the threshold.  This flight profile looks odd to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 On 12/29/2021 at 9:22 AM, Frank B. said: FAA is always right …. Unless you ask Dan Gryder … right? Even Dan Gryder would likely concede that CNN is the least credible in this mix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: Anyone ever pinned one right above stall speed, full power, backside of the power curve with gear and flaps?  I doubt it will climb or accelerate.  Maybe spooked by the baggage opening?  It would be slow with high AOA. I have. The pitch angle and break are aggressive, especially in a light airplane at moderate temps. The wing drop in my plane would feel aggressive  to anyone not accustomed to aerobatics. Not something most folks would want to do for fun or for currency. With patience and a light touch It is possible to recover before the break with little altitude loss. Edited January 14, 2022 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: Turbocharged, 2 pax and had been flying 20 min. so some fuel burned off - so the weight would seem be well below max gross (even if they both weighed 200 each and it if had 50 gal maybe 700 lbs and at 2,500 lbs total), witness reports that the landing gear was up so the biggest normal source of drag was eliminated, practically at sea level, cool day- it should jump. Why would it not climb and accelerate?! It should jump if allowed to accelerate to a normal speed during rotation through initial climb, yes.  However, if you pull (admittedly a strong pull) the nose up aggressively, you’ll find yourself pointing very much nose high, possibly just above stall, and with so much induced drag that it’s very difficult to accelerate. It’s a precarious position because if you stall, the wing will definitely drop rapidly.  You have to lower the nose to gain speed before climbing.  It’s tough to make yourself do it close to the ground. Eye witness said gear was pulled up when the nose was already pointed very high. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 One thing for sure… If the baggage door opens in flight… You will get a windstorm and lots of things circulating around in the cabin… We have plenty of experience around here… The plane has always flown well with the baggage door open… If the door gets ripped off and strikes the tail feathers… things change a bit…  but, that has only happened in cruise flight, at cruise speeds…  So… add surprise, and distraction to whatever the slow flight was all about… Sounds like a stack of things occurring… at the same time…  Always fly the plane… -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 Repeating. ALWAYS fly the airplane. Stalling is never good. Condolences to family and friends. Hopefully we will find the rest of the story soon enough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted January 14, 2022 Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 15 hours ago, carusoam said: One thing for sure… If the baggage door opens in flight… You will get a windstorm and lots of things circulating around in the cabin… We have plenty of experience around here… The plane has always flown well with the baggage door open…  Always fly the plane… -a- Left mine unsecured once, still has the scar.  I didn't even realize it until I started searching for why I was 5 knots slow in cruise.  The breeze inside the cockpit should have tipped me off, but it were no windstorm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 15, 2022 Report Share Posted January 15, 2022 12 hours ago, steingar said: Left mine unsecured once, still has the scar.  I didn't even realize it until I started searching for why I was 5 knots slow in cruise.  The breeze inside the cockpit should have tipped me off, but it were no windstorm. It’s possible your cockpit was cleaner than mine….   We got a whole bunch of new PIC procedures after that one… lots of paper charts and things were popular back in the day… I’ve only seen an iPad go flying once… Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted January 16, 2022 Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 Many , many aircraft have crashed because the door popped open, and we all know most airplanes will fly just fine with the door open, but it apparently rattles the nerves enough for many people to crash. Doesnt explain the slow flight, but maybe the two together was one too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 Has anyone experienced the baggage door popping open even if it has been latched down? I was told always latch and lock the baggage door as one of my checks. Just curios if someone had one come open even when latched or are we talking about leaving it unlatched on accident? I don’t see my coming unlatched do to the solid feel it has when closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 51 minutes ago, WAFI said: Has anyone experienced the baggage door popping open even if it has been latched down? I was told always latch and lock the baggage door as one of my checks. Just curios if someone had one come open even when latched or are we talking about leaving it unlatched on accident? I don’t see my coming unlatched do to the solid feel it has when closed. There are some previous threads where people swore it came open even after they fully closed and locked it.  There’s a good discussion on the thread where the door separated and wrapped around the horizontal stab.  It was in the UK if I remember right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 This is a long thread but several people talk about it…  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, WAFI said: Has anyone experienced the baggage door popping open even if it has been latched down? I was told always latch and lock the baggage door as one of my checks. Just curios if someone had one come open even when latched or are we talking about leaving it unlatched on accident? I don’t see my coming unlatched do to the solid feel it has when closed. Baggage doors left unlatched typically come open at rotation… There is a procedure to follow that essentially says fly the plane… Doing an ordinary pattern and landing, the door usually doesn’t come all the way open…  The one door that came open in cruise flight had previous damage to the latching mechanism…  Some doors have been known to open all the way and tear the support mechanism… but the hinge keeps things together… If really unlucky, the door gets reshaped to match the other side of the fuselage….  There are a few doors that have been replaced over the years…  Check your baggage door… it should be able to be locked and still openable from the inside… Getting an update to open the baggage door for the older models… is only a small parts kit available from your favorite MSC… With family members in the plane… we trained everyone how to close the door properly…  the challenge comes up… when somebody thinks they are not the last person to touch the door… Our door doesn’t get shut, without being latched… either all the way open, or all the way closed and latched… (a pain when helicopters are taxiing by) PP thoughts only… -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 36 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: This is a long thread but several people talk about it…  Wow, thank for sharing this. I hear about this but never saw the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 As someone stated early in this thread this was a sick engine. On multiple flights the climb rates were consistently very anemic and cruise speeds did not increase much in level flight, but the head scratcher for me though is the very low speed on final. The only way I can explain the slow approach speed is flying by accepted Manifold Pressure such as 14 or so on final, but my cross reference is the airspeed indicator and if it’s low I’m going to add power.  Did the fact that this J had a turbo contribute in some way to low power ?  The reports stated it would spin freely but Is there a turbo failure mode such as waste-gate that would result in low power but still indicate correct manifold pressure and RPM ? I ask because I have no experience with turbocharged engines.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 15 hours ago, WAFI said: Has anyone experienced the baggage door popping open even if it has been latched down? I was told always latch and lock the baggage door as one of my checks. Just curios if someone had one come open even when latched or are we talking about leaving it unlatched on accident? I don’t see my coming unlatched do to the solid feel it has when closed. There is a long thread here of a case in Europe where the inside latch release wasn't properly configured (misassembled, I think).  They had baggage piled up to the level of the latch that may or may not have interfered with it, but it came open mid-flight during cruise and damaged the elevator after tearing from the hinge. Mine popped open during takeoff roll once, but I was distracted when I was closing it and it probably wasn't fully latched. I agree that a fully latched, properly maintained door won't spontaneously open during flight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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