ilovecornfields Posted December 2, 2021 Report Share Posted December 2, 2021 14 minutes ago, Hank said: What avionics upgrades can be made??? Exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_S Posted December 2, 2021 Report Share Posted December 2, 2021 56 minutes ago, Hank said: What avionics upgrades can be made??? Well, let's see. Updating the backup instruments from "steam" to "digital". Adding an AOA indicator. Adding a HUD. Swapping a USB power adapter into one of the round holes. Adding a marine navigation radio. Probably a few others if I think about it hard enough. These are all real things that I've seen in birds like ours. People need to quit hating on the G1000 just because you can't change things willy-nilly. In exchange for some structure, you get a fine system that is well-engineered and somehow, someway, gets the airplane to where it needs to be just like all the other systems. We all know the only thing that really matters is that the big air circulation fan in front keeps spinning! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healthpilot Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 12/2/2021 at 10:02 AM, Hank said: What avionics upgrades can be made??? Exaclty... A G1000 with WAAS is still the top of the line. Nxi is just a faster chip. I added ADSB out that's all. I don't need anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healthpilot Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 23 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: Exactly my point. Absolutely ridiculous. What can be made. Anything and everything. The real question is why and what price... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Healthpilot said: Absolutely ridiculous. What can be made. Anything and everything. The real question is why and what price... I would be interested in the price of upgrading your G1000 to any of the new features now available on the Garmin units or the Nxi. I can Think of Smart Glide in addition to the features mentioned in this article: https://www.flyingmag.com/g1000-nxi-piston-aircraft-retrofit/ I will concede that you are correct that the only issue is price. Now that the Mooney factory is on sale I assume if you bought the factory and sent a few million $$$ over to Garmin they would be happy to certify the Nxi upgrade for you. I’m not as rich as you are so I’m paying $12k to swap my G500 display out for a G500Txi so it’s a slightly cheaper upgrade path for me. But as the kids say these days “you do you.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healthpilot Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 11:59 AM, ilovecornfields said: I’m not as rich as you are so I’m paying $12k to swap my G500 display out for a G500Txi so it’s a slightly cheaper upgrade path for me. But as the kids say these days “you do you.” Ahahahaha! Sure... And I will be even richer than you I guess since I am quite happy with my G1000 + WAAS + GFC700 autopilot. So I plan to enjoy the top of the line features that I have and spend $0 (vs your -$12k) for a few years and wait to see what Dynon and others will come out with. Let me remind you however that your original statement was related to how modern and serviceable the above combination is. And it is still definitely still quite modern and serviceable compared to most other options out there. In my personal opinion Nxi is a nice to have maybe but the above systems are still up there with the best systems in the market. Upgradability in avionics is an issue well beyond the G1000. But I see that you want to keep up with the Mooneyspace tradition to comment on what you don't fly so I respect that. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 8 hours ago, Healthpilot said: Ahahahaha! Sure... And I will be even richer than you I guess since I am quite happy with my G1000 + WAAS + GFC700 autopilot. So I plan to enjoy the top of the line features that I have and spend $0 (vs your -$12k) for a few years and wait to see what Dynon and others will come out with. Let me remind you however that your original statement was related to how modern and serviceable the above combination is. And it is still definitely still quite modern and serviceable compared to most other options out there. In my personal opinion Nxi is a nice to have maybe but the above systems are still up there with the best systems in the market. Upgradability in avionics is an issue well beyond the G1000. But I see that you want to keep up with the Mooneyspace tradition to comment on what you don't fly so I respect that. :-) I agree that G1000 was modern in 2003, but that was a few years ago... I’m familiar with the G1000 and have flown behind one many times- i just didn’t buy one. I actually seriously considered a couple of G1000 Ovations when I bought my plane and decided not to do it specifically for the reasons I’ve mentioned. Frankly; I would have preferred the lower panel but I didn’t want to be trapped with that system and no clear upgrade path when it becomes obsolete. It sounds like you love your G1000 and your G1000 loves you. That’s great. I’m very happy for you. That still doesn’t make it modern or upgradable. Sorry I stuck a nerve with that statement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthiasArnold Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 I admit , I really enjoy the G1000 in my O2 GX and also did some upgrades: WAAS - app. one year ago, not straightforward but doable AirAvionics AT-1, integrated into MFD & audio - we don't have NexRad / ADSB out in Europe, but tons of gliders with FLARM, Mode-S, .. LHS - ok, that's just audio integration .. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healthpilot Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 On 12/6/2021 at 3:30 AM, MatthiasArnold said: I admit , I really enjoy the G1000 in my O2 GX and also did some upgrades: WAAS - app. one year ago, not straightforward but doable AirAvionics AT-1, integrated into MFD & audio - we don't have NexRad / ADSB out in Europe, but tons of gliders with FLARM, Mode-S, .. LHS - ok, that's just audio integration .. Ditto. I guess you and I both didn't have to purchase the Mooney factory to do this? So it's doable indeed. IMHO Ovations with G1000 + WAAS + ADSB + GFC700 autopilots here in the US are one of the best deals in the used airplane market and still top of the line standard for so many model aircrafts beyond Mooney that facts speak for themselves. The system is still quite modern, efficient, easy to use, serviceable and somewhat upgradable. Again: As it relates to the topic and the original question above, for a student pilot in the UK to purchase a long body Mooney with TKS and Turbo and also go through a major panel upgrade from steam gauges is an expensive and daunting task. Without considering the down time issue and associated risk and cost. My 2c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flynic3 Posted December 10, 2021 Report Share Posted December 10, 2021 Good Morning, I am not trying to flame any fires here but couldn't help but responding to a few comments posted in regards to G1000 equipped aircraft. I just wanted to break things down a bit for the OP to consider about arguments made for and against. I am not a Mooney owner, however install Avionics for a Part 145 repair station, and my statements are based on my experiences with repairing and servicing G1000 aircraft. I think the biggest weakness of the G1000 is three fold... 1. The G1000 is STC'd to the Airframe so you are basically stuck with the G1000 unless you remove it completely, which would require a major alteration approval... in the UK may be a difficult task. 2. The G1000 was the first Garmin EFIS certified, and in my opinion they locked themselves inside a tight box to pass certification when it comes to software, configuration etc... furthermore the Software level and features are controlled by the Airframe OEM's as well. 3. The GIA-63W's required for the WAAS upgrade are no longer manufactured and extremely hard to acquire, so if the Aircraft has not been upgraded yet... again you are stuck. The WAAS upgrade typically runs $32-36K, and for the money spent you are getting fairly minimal bang for your buck... more or less just bringing things to a 2008 standard. I typically see a lot more failures on the G1000 components and the cost to repair or receive a newly overhauled component is more expensive. With all the knobs and buttons on the G1000 display, something as simple as a rotary knob failing will cost you $3k+ plus 6-8 hours of labor. I have replaced 4-5 Displays in the last year for this reason, and also see a lot of GMU-44 magnetometer failures on older systems. I have come across a few failures of other LRU's like the GRS-77 AHRS and GDC-74 ADC, but those two issue's stand out as more commonplace. The repair and replacement of the G1000 components are also a bit more labor intensive as well, mostly due to the time it takes to reload software and configuration settings etc. Even a simple software update can take 4-8X longer compared with newer EFIS systems depending on options installed in the aircraft, so again is much more labor intensive compared with newer systems. I have spent as long as 12 hours reloading software into a G1000 equipped Cirrus SR-22... which is ridiculous. As a general rule of thumb, the G1000 can be a nightmare when it comes to upgrades and servicing... especially when compared to newer EFIS systems. That all being said, from a pilots point of view the G1000 is still a great EFIS system overall, especially when equipped with WAAS, GFC-700, SVT and GTX-345R. This is a great IFR combination for most, but once time passes another 10-20 years, I will be interested to see what upgrade paths will be available for Mooney owners. Compared with the newer G3X and G500/600TXi EFIS systems offered from Garmin, the G1000 is definitely showing it's age. You can't buy into an older EFIS architecture expecting to get comparable features and reliability of the more modern EFIS systems. The NXi upgrade is mostly CPU and better Displays due to the G1000 hitting a point where they could no longer add additional features without experiencing noticeable delay in panning of the moving map etc. This was also the case with the GTN series as well and why the Xi's offered the same CPU/Display upgrade... the original GTN's are only 10-11 years old, so stating a non-WAAS G1000 is modern would be misleading. They are still a decent system to fly behind, but if I were looking at purchasing an Ovation like the OP... I think I would lean towards purchasing one with a standard six pack, myself. This leaves you with a lot more upgrade options, and I would lean towards installing a G3X or G500Txi over buying a G1000 equipped Mooney. In doing a quick search comparing GX Ovations versus similar airframe time models from the late 90's, you save $100K or more... which would buy a much more modern and capable Glass panel. This again, is just my personal opinion based on my experiences with servicing G1000 equipped aircraft. I hope this helps... Nic 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healthpilot Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 5 hours ago, Flynic3 said: That all being said, from a pilots point of view the G1000 is still a great EFIS system overall, especially when equipped with WAAS, GFC-700, SVT and GTX-345R. This is a great IFR combination for most, but once time passes another 10-20 years, I will be interested to see what upgrade paths will be available for Mooney owners. Me too. Let's face it. Truly upgrading a full old steam gauge panel requires research, months of downtime and a budget close to or north of $100k. All good avionics shops have a backlog and I have also seen a few panel upgrades go sideways and turn into nightmares. A risk you don't have with a good factory installed G1000. That's exactly the reason why time would work in favor of a UK student pilot that could use a G1000+WAAS+ADSB+Modern autopilot with no downtime and without being forced to even waste time thinking about an upgrade yet. Honestly for a Mooney I have seen very little that is available (new touch screens maybe?) and is also technically compelling enough while being reasonably priced to convince me to do anything at all to improve my avionics package yet. Hopefully Dynon and others will inject some more value based competition in this space. Same as Microsoft did with IBM and then Apple in my old days. At that point rip and replace will be the only reasonable upgrade path I guess. Personally I don't expect anything close to 20 years and I am ok with another 5 to 10 years of G1000 avionics lifetime. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 On 12/2/2021 at 12:02 PM, Hank said: What avionics upgrades can be made??? What avionics upgrade could I want to a WAAS, SVT, Datalinked, ASD-b, GFC700 equipped plane? It just simply works beautifully. I have had my share of component failures as pointed out above, but turn-around time has been very quick, including a warranty replacement on the MFD. When I bought the TN in 2016, I don’t think Garmin had their latest generation stuff out-especially the autopilot. So buying and upgrading a steam gauge Bravo was not possible. Today it is a very good option in a Bravo or Ovation if you want a project. If I were Ovation shopping today, I’d definitely look for an upgraded steam gauge panel, but in this thin market, one done the way I want it is probably a unicorn. A G1000/GFC700 plane is turn-key. I can’t afford the downtime and cost/time uncertainty of an avionics upgrade, so for me, the G1000/GFC700 choice would likely still win. YMMV. Another consideration is panel height. The steam gauge long body planes have a very tall panel that for me impinges on forward visibility. Can the new Garmin retrofits lower the panel? I don’t know but would want to find out. I hope some day to be in a place that I would enjoy the upgrade project and can afford the downtime. But until then, G1000 obsolescence or end-of-life is pretty far down the list of issues that keep me up at night, and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another. YMMV, of course. But what a great world we live in that we have to choose between these great systems. -dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 The downtime on a legacy to full glass panel upgrade was significant for me. The plane was down for 6 months. In hindsight other shops could have done it faster, but I had only 1 person do the whole thing. He was close by so I could look in on him weekly to see the progress. It was supposed to take 3 months. There was a time during the process where I wondered if I would ever get the plane flying again, especially since I was dependent on one person. As I was getting anxious, he told me that when the project was long done, I wouldn't remember how long it took to do it. That was 2014 and he was right, other than I remember it took a long time. He did several upgrades to the upgrades since that time. Those wouldn't have been possible with a G1000. So, I'm glad I have that option. I do like flying and teaching in the G1000 airplanes, though. The GFC 500 AP is a great improvement over the KFC 150, but I do think the GFC 700 is one of the best AP Garmin has built for small GA airplanes. While I think the G1000 NXi has TargetTrend for traffic, I don't think the early G1000 systems do. Correct me if I am wrong. TargetTrend is worth its weight in gold. Also, I don't think the early G1000 systems have bluetooth capability. It's a personal preference, but I like the system architecture and latest icon user interface of the touchscreens. The combination of touchscreen and knobs makes flying in turbulence a non issue. The G1000 UI and menu system is more cumbersome with all the buttons. My experience with older G1000 systems is that their displays dim so as to be almost unusable over time. at least when viewing from the right seat. Replacing the displays solves the issue, but at a cost. So far I have not seen the same with the newer displays. Smart Glide is not available for the G1000, yet. Yes, the older long body planes have a higher panel. That is something you just get used to. In fact it feels rather comfortable being in your little cocoon in IMC surrounded by the higher panel. Just a few thoughts about both systems having had a lot of experience with both... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schllc Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 On 12/2/2021 at 12:10 AM, ilovecornfields said: What avionics upgrades have you made in the last 10 years? Maybe a better question is, what on the g1000 needs to be upgraded? What does a “modern panel” do that a g1000 won’t? My g1000 already has smartglide with the nearest/enter/enter, engage AP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 20 hours ago, Schllc said: Maybe a better question is, what on the g1000 needs to be upgraded? That was where I was going in my post higher up. The difference between steam gauges and glass is massive in terms of situational awareness, safety, and reliability. The difference between G1000 and something with a touch screen interface is there, but to me it's a marginal benefit only. -dan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schllc Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 9 hours ago, exM20K said: That was where I was going in my post higher up. The difference between steam gauges and glass is massive in terms of situational awareness, safety, and reliability. The difference between G1000 and something with a touch screen interface is there, but to me it's a marginal benefit only. -dan I also have to refute the comment about the g1000 not being “serviceable”. I have had to replace a screen and it was done for less than half of what the other poster suggested, and the turn around from Garmin was three days. All in all the repair was $2,700 parts and labor. There are thousands of planes with this platform and Garmin will provide complete support for the foreseeable future. My experience as an owner of several g1000 planes just isn’t the horror story that all those who don’t own them claim. I completely understand why someone would elect to buy something else, but let’s not conflate preference and opinion with facts. The fact is that while the g1000 is not the latest avionic discovery, its function and capability is still amazing and provides better situational awareness and system integration than almost any other panel available for small GA planes. Waas for these legacy planes that aren’t equipped is a challenge, but it’s also a myth that it’s impossible, or will be, to do. While not having is an obvious limitation, I’d put a years pay that there are more non ga planes out there without Waas than g1000 planes, because for most of us, it’s just not required. To provide the equivalent functionality and interface using the g3, 750, along with engine management etc would cost 100k+ and lots of downtime, and the result would be at best a modestly faster platform with a touch screen. Lastly, Im not trying to persuade anyone to buy a g1000 or convert those that are convinced otherwise. I just think that a fair representation from an owners perspective is important for those on the fence or curious about the Pro’s and cons. I’ve said it before, and it bears repeating, I have yet to meet someone who bought any version of a g1000 and regrets it, and I know several who sold their g1000 planes for models without and miss them. Everything in aviation is a trade off, and for me, whatever flaws and limitations the g1000 present, are well worth them for the safety and comfort it provides me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Schllc said: I also have to refute the comment about the g1000 not being “serviceable”. I have had to replace a screen and it was done for less than half of what the other poster suggested, and the turn around from Garmin was three days. All in all the repair was $2,700 parts and labor. There are thousands of planes with this platform and Garmin will provide complete support for the foreseeable future. My experience as an owner of several g1000 planes just isn’t the horror story that all those who don’t own them claim. I completely understand why someone would elect to buy something else, but let’s not conflate preference and opinion with facts. The fact is that while the g1000 is not the latest avionic discovery, its function and capability is still amazing and provides better situational awareness and system integration than almost any other panel available for small GA planes. Waas for these legacy planes that aren’t equipped is a challenge, but it’s also a myth that it’s impossible, or will be, to do. While not having is an obvious limitation, I’d put a years pay that there are more non ga planes out there without Waas than g1000 planes, because for most of us, it’s just not required. To provide the equivalent functionality and interface using the g3, 750, along with engine management etc would cost 100k+ and lots of downtime, and the result would be at best a modestly faster platform with a touch screen. Lastly, Im not trying to persuade anyone to buy a g1000 or convert those that are convinced otherwise. I just think that a fair representation from an owners perspective is important for those on the fence or curious about the Pro’s and cons. I’ve said it before, and it bears repeating, I have yet to meet someone who bought any version of a g1000 and regrets it, and I know several who sold their g1000 planes for models without and miss them. Everything in aviation is a trade off, and for me, whatever flaws and limitations the g1000 present, are well worth them for the safety and comfort it provides me. And the fact that you’re selling your G1000 plane probably has nothing to do with your strong opinions on the subject and need to “prove” everyone else wrong who disagrees with you. As I said before, I’m glad you’re happy with it. Not everyone buys a plane every year or two so some people prefer to invest in a platform that is more “future proof” than the G1000. Especially from brand that’s essentially no longer producing airplanes. If you’re switching planes every few years it probably doesn’t really matter what you buy today so maybe being locked into a nice, slightly outdated platform isn’t such a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schllc Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 24 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: And the fact that you’re selling your G1000 plane probably has nothing to do with your strong opinions on the subject and need to “prove” everyone else wrong who disagrees with you. As I said before, I’m glad you’re happy with it. Not everyone buys a plane every year or two so some people prefer to invest in a platform that is more “future proof” than the G1000. Especially from brand that’s essentially no longer producing airplanes. If you’re switching planes every few years it probably doesn’t really matter what you buy today so maybe being locked into a nice, slightly outdated platform isn’t such a bad thing. LOL, I fear you’ve missed my point but that’s ok, and thank you for reminding me why I don’t do any social media. For what it’s worth, I’ve only owned Mooney’s with g1000’s, and so is my new sled, with FIKI! My Christmas present to myself! Enjoy whatever it is you fly, and safe travels! All of us here are all fortunate to be able to fly anything at all.. Merry Christmas!! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 9 out of 10 people on this thread are in severe agreement with each other… The tenth person isn’t taking the needed time to clearly state what he means… Unfortunately for him… he didn’t write what you think he did… He doesn’t recognize his failure… So… the tenth person is probably in agreement with the other nine… The only unhappy Long Body owner… just bought a different Long Body…. As he has a history of having a few already…. Step one, get Long Body… Step two, upgrade as required… as you see fit… to match your budget… today. Step three, be nice to the other Long Body owners… Why be nice…. You may want their help one day. Sure… MS is on the internet… and anything goes on the internet… MS isn’t the usual internet… Some MSers are too busy to write and edit properly… as if there is something more important in life… Don’t get dragged in by the lazy writer/editor/Long Body driver…. My O was born with no AC or Fiki or TNs…. It made a lot of sense to have when I bought it… MGTW was key…. I couldn’t afford the extras, and the bird too…. A decade plus later… things have changed… AC, FIKI, TNs would be great now…. As for… “should have not gone flying that day”… that is a brutally bad judgement call… crappy weather finds us. We don’t go looking for crappy weather… Following that logic… people would stay home seasonally… a lot. Some of the smartest pilots flying Mooneys have had simple human challenges that have lead to their demise… FIKI, storm detection, a back-up O2 system…. All would have been helpful…. Let’s leave off the judgement… it takes a bit more effort to write clearly…. We can all do it… A Fiki system is great to have especially in the PNW… and flying East of the Great Lakes…. MSers have been involved in these discussions for more than a decade… Having a more capable plane… doesn’t make the pilot take on more risk haphazardly…. Sure there is more risk available for the taking… and a LB will get you there faster…. You probably won’t make many friends… telling them you are somehow better than they are because you didn’t buy a Fiki equipped plane… Or, FIKI isn’t good enough to warrant having… (say it’s your opinion if you need to clarify….) Always be nice… it doesn’t cost a thing…. - mom Go LB… w/ Fiki TKS, G1000W, or touch screen, and O2…. Throw on a pair of snails for fun… snails, MP controllers, and intercoolers… the works! Best Regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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