M20M Crash near Pomona, CA

[orangemtl]

When I have the luxury, I do not fly a tight pattern, and I try to have a nice, long final. Poke fun at my "Grandma" turns all you like: but Grandma didn't get old by accident. I've no doubt that experienced pilots exist that can recover from a pattern stall within a few hundred feet of the ground. I'm not that guy, and never plan to become that guy for those last, few fleeting seconds of my life...

BTW: for all the berating I attracted with faster-than-average approach speeds, it sure keeps you off the rocks better than marginal speeds, before one is on final. "Too fast" is still appealing, until I'm on a reasonably long final; relatively easy to dump the remaining knots thereafter.

OK, it's now open season for all the old hands to tell me what an idiot I am...!

[Cris]

Quote: orangemtl

BTW: for all the berating I attracted with faster-than-average approach speeds, it sure keeps you off the rocks better than marginal speeds, before one is on final. "Too fast" is still appealing, until I'm on a reasonably long final; relatively easy to dump the remaining knots thereafter.

[Shadrach]

Quote: bd32322

The whole problem is that we were taught to fly rectangular patterns....

[fantom]

Quote: Shadrach

[jetdriven]

Mike, if you are uncomfortable flying the airplane at the recommended 1.2 or 1.3 Vso then that is a traning issue.  There are just as many accidents from being too fast on final as too slow.  Go out and get comfortable with it.

Quote: orangemtl

When I have the luxury, I do not fly a tight pattern, and I try to have a nice, long final. Poke fun at my "Grandma" turns all you like: but Grandma didn't get old by accident. I've no doubt that experienced pilots exist that can recover from a pattern stall within a few hundred feet of the ground. I'm not that guy, and never plan to become that guy for those last, few fleeting seconds of my life...

BTW: for all the berating I attracted with faster-than-average approach speeds, it sure keeps you off the rocks better than marginal speeds, before one is on final. "Too fast" is still appealing, until I'm on a reasonably long final; relatively easy to dump the remaining knots thereafter.

OK, it's now open season for all the old hands to tell me what an idiot I am...!

[mpponte]

I fly an Acclaim which is a different body Mooney than my former M20J, a lot more nose heavy and a lot faster. It's a "fly by the numbers airplane" that follows the dictum PITCH +POWER = PERFORMANCE very closely. When entering the pattern, 16-18" MP = 140-130  KIAS which allows for lowering the gear. I usually do this ASA I enter the downwind leg. Then, down to 15", and abeam the N's, flaps are lowered to the T/O position and MP down to 12" with nose up trim for the magic 90 KIAS. Then just manage the 300-500 FPM descent.

From this moment onward, it's all visual, address your attention to: the landing threshold and the IAS. Keep it at 90 KIA, through your base and base to final turn, keeping in mind where the wind is coming from. This will determine how far away you need to make your turn.

Turns should not be > 30 degrees of bank, because we know what happens to the load factor when the bank increases. Then comes full flaps which generates an aggressive nose down pitch moment; so it's important to use nose up trim to prevent this aggressive nose down movement. You should be around 500-600 AGL at this point, and approximately 1/3 mile from the RWY. if you're above the GS (VASI), keep the landing spot fixed in the windshiel. If you're low, give it power, if you want to loose altitude reduce power, but keep the pitch steady. This Mooney does not like unstable approaches. 

POH says 75 KIAS over the N's but I like to add a few extra knots, because there's always some wind and because if you chop the power, the a/c settles into the grown very rapidly and you can bounce it. 

Also, keep in mind, this a/c floats 200 FT for every knot above the recommended IAS, so plan your approach accordingly.

[orangemtl]

Quote: Shadrach

I disagree, I think a large part of the problem is that collectivley we are uncomfortable with the low speed part of our aircraft's envelope. I envision a situation where Joe blow who does a straight in approach 85% of the time, comes into the pattern at a smaller airport, reduces speed, drops the gear, turns base into a tail wind, starts his turn to final and sees the over shoot so rather than steepen beyond the the killer 30degrees, he unconsciously steps on his left rudder to compensate a little...and then more, and more.  He ends up slow and uncoordinated, and then sudenly looses it...but at least he never banked more than 30degrees. 

[orangemtl]

Quote: mpponte

I fly an Acclaim which is a different body Mooney than my former M20J, a lot more nose heavy and a lot faster. It's a "fly by the numbers airplane" that follows the dictum PITCH +POWER = PERFORMANCE very closely. When entering the pattern, 16-18" MP = 140-130  KIAS which allows for lowering the gear. I usually do this ASA I enter the downwind leg. Then, down to 15", and abeam the N's, flaps are lowered to the T/O position and MP down to 12" with nose up trim for the magic 90 KIAS. Then just manage the 300-500 FPM descent.

From this moment onward, it's all visual, address your attention to: the landing threshold and the IAS. Keep it at 90 KIA, through your base and base to final turn, keeping in mind where the wind is coming from. This will determine how far away you need to make your turn.

Turns should not be > 30 degrees of bank, because we know what happens to the load factor when the bank increases. Then comes full flaps which generates an aggressive nose down pitch moment; so it's important to use nose up trim to prevent this aggressive nose down movement. You should be around 500-600 AGL at this point, and approximately 1/3 mile from the RWY. if you're above the GS (VASI), keep the landing spot fixed in the windshiel. If you're low, give it power, if you want to loose altitude reduce power, but keep the pitch steady. This Mooney does not like unstable approaches. 

POH says 75 KIAS over the N's but I like to add a few extra knots, because there's always some wind and because if you chop the power, the a/c settles into the grown very rapidly and you can bounce it. 

Also, keep in mind, this a/c floats 200 FT for every knot above the recommended IAS, so plan your approach accordingly.

[Shadrach]

Quote: mpponte

Turns should not be > 30 degrees of bank, because we know what happens to the load factor when the bank increases. 

[sreid]

Quote: Shadrach

OK, I'll bite, I'm in your airplane descending at 350FPM in a 40degree bank, what's the load factor? What's the margin (approximate) above stall in an Acclaim at 2900lbs and 90KCAS? 

[Shadrach]

Quote: sreid

OK, I'll bite, I'm in your airplane descending at 350FPM in a 40degree bank, what's the load factor? What's the margin (approximate) above stall in an Acclaim at 2900lbs and 90KCAS? 

[bd32322]

Quote: Shadrach

I disagree, I think a large part of the problem is that collectivley we are uncomfortable with the low speed part of our aircraft's envelope. I envision a situation where Joe blow who does a straight in approach 85% of the time, comes into the pattern at a smaller airport, reduces speed, drops the gear, turns base into a tail wind, starts his turn to final and sees the over shoot so rather than steepen beyond the the killer 30degrees, he unconsciously steps on his left rudder to compensate a little...and then more, and more.  He ends up slow and uncoordinated, and then sudenly looses it...but at least he never banked more than 30degrees. 

[bd32322]

and yes there are airmanship issues also - but I wasnt commenting on that.

[bd32322]

the rectangular pattern tells us to use crab to compensate for the wind - say you do that on downwind in a direct left crosswind - fine you go in a straight line parallel to the runway. But for the left crosswind on a left pattern, how do you compensate for the wind on base? You cannot with a rectangular pattern - unless you have flown a wide pattern you have not left yourself room to maneuver safely with a tailwind on base. You can either fly a wide pattern or fly the downwind at an angle such that your ground track is at an angle away from the runway and into the wind. If you get it right - for the same bank angle that you normally like to use you should get a smooth turn straight onto final.

sorry for the multiple posts

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: Shadrach

This implies that it's not possible to recover from a stall in a Mooney in less than 1500ft... This is not true as I have taken my F to full stall and had it flying again in <200ft...and I'm not that good. Is it a bad idea to stall in the pattern? YES. Is it a death sentence? Not necessarily. More absolute statements (I know it wasn't yours Rich) without much in the way of data...

[sreid]

Quote: Shadrach

Close, but not quite.  My question was not to demonstrate that descending has such a huge impact on stall, it does not. At -500fpm constant descent it's ~5% decrease in load factor at 45d bank compared to the same no descent turn and ~10% reduction in load factor at 60D.

[drmarkflies]

 

The M20M crash that started this thread sent me off to do Upset Recovery Training at APS in Mesa, AZ. I just finished the course. Here are some thoughts.

First thought: Wow! Just wow!

I will never look at how I fly my Bravo the same way again. Conventional training my tell us what not to do, this training unambiguously shows you what happens when you do the things you are taught not to do... like skidding turns in the pattern. I had no idea how insidious and then violent and disorienting a skidding stall becomes. You also have not lived until you recover from a fully coupled inverted spin.

I did the full 4-day course which included stall recovery under the hood. It cost about the same as my annual insurance premium. It was completely worth it.

After your vertigo wanes and just so you don't forget what you did, they send you home with onboard video of you from the inside, and your airplane from the right wind and top of the empennage for every flight. I made some facial expressions never before seen by man.

APS instructors are absolutely world-class. You may want to check out some of their training videos.

www.apstraining.com/

If you have not yet seen it, this is what not to do in your Mooney should you lose the engine after rotation.

http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/07/articles/general-aviation/the-impossible-turn-and-three-mooney-crashes-in-two-weeks/

Fly safe y'all.

 

[drmarkflies]

 

The recent fatal M20M accident near Pomona, CA appears as though it may have been a manuvering stall-spin on the base-to-final leg. The statistics for fatal pattern accidents certainly support this hypothesis.

If this hypothesis is correct, it seems odd the pilot was flying NNE and cleared to land on 26R (according to the NTSB eye witness and ATC, respectively).

Has anyone flown into Brackett Field and been given left traffic for 26R?

Does anyone have an alternate hypothesis?

Of course, we would all like to know if there is anyting "Mooney" in this accident or whether it was a misjudgement by the pilot, so I'm not seeking a speculation-fest, just food for thought.

 

The NTSB finally has a probable cause for this Bravo crash, three years later... apparently the pilot was scud running in the pattern with a cloud base at pattern altitude. "The pilot’s failure to maintain sufficient altitude to clear obstructions while maneuvering on the base leg of the traffic pattern for landing." If we are not instrument rated (and current) we have lost one of the most important ways out of a bad situation... an instrument approach.

[chrisk]

The M20M crash that started this thread sent me off to do Upset Recovery Training at APS in Mesa, AZ. I just finished the course. Here are some thoughts.

First thought: Wow! Just wow!

I will never look at how I fly my Bravo the same way again. Conventional training my tell us what not to do, this training unambiguously shows you what happens when you do the things you are taught not to do... like skidding turns in the pattern. I had no idea how insidious and then violent and disorienting a skidding stall becomes. You also have not lived until you recover from a fully coupled inverted spin.

I did the full 4-day course which included stall recovery under the hood. It cost about the same as my annual insurance premium. It was completely worth it.

About a month ago, I got some spin training in a Cessna 177. It was surprising how quick it happens and how disorienting it is. Just when the plane feels like it is going to stall, it suddenly drops a wing and you are staring at the ground with a feeling of being inverted. Anyway I would want to do one in the pattern, especially in a Mooney.

If you haven't done a spin before, put it on the list.

[bonal]

This is the best type of discussion I learn so much from all the different opinions. I think for me the most important factor is my situational awareness. It's great to be able to use a stable approach and I try to do so but there are times when conditions force one to make corrections that are not expected and there are pilots that were not given the time to learn real stick and rudder skills ie butt calibration and when conditions are less than ideal they make mistakes that end up causing accidents. My first instructor was a retired Airforce instructor and boy did he drill me on low speed high angle of attack flying. What impressed me so much was no matter how screwed up I got the airplane how quickly he could recover and put it into perfect control. Every time we flew approach if I missed my speeds I owed him an extra dollar for the lesson. Last year I did a session of unusual attitude training and learned a bunch next phase is in a Citabria for more aggressive recovery training I hope to do that soon. When things go bad the most important thing is to keep your head make the best choices you can and fly the airplane if you panic you most surley are dead. One more thing I agree spin training is a must! Can't believe its not required

[DaV8or]

One more thing I agree spin training is a must! Can't believe its not required

 

It comes from actual, real world experience in the field, not theory, gut feeling, or intuition. Spin training used to be a "must" and when it was, pilots were still stalling and spinning into the ground. In fact many of them were doing so while training, or practicing to pass the PPL. They now train for stall avoidance and stall education and you know what? Stall/spin accidents have actually gone down. It's just all in the numbers.

 

The vast majority of stall/spin accidents happen at, or below TPA, so no amount of spin training is going to save you if you get into a spin in the traffic pattern in your Mooney. You will die. It has been reported that the Mooney takes about 3,000ft to recover from a fully developed spin and that is with an expert at the controls that is prepared for the stall. I have to side with the FAA on this subject. Additional training of any type is always good and maybe doing spins is fun, but if people want to get additional training to be safe flying their Mooneys, I think there is far greater use of your training dollars than spin training.

[DaV8or]

IMO, this accident is the result of got to get there itis and the concept of operating the personal airline on schedule. While many chase the dream of the personal airline and will say this guy should of had an IR, been current, had deicing, an autopilot, redundant systems, etc, etc, etc... I say he should have stayed home and waited for better weather. That would have been the best course of action IMO.

[bonal]

Not surprised that there is disagreement on this since I know it is a subject of differing opinions. For me personally I am glad to have had full spin training granted it's not going to do me any good at low altitude but to know what happens gives me a better understanding of what to do and what not to do. Bottom line is don't put myself in a position that is unsafe.

[Danb]

Bo it has been a couple maybe 3 decades since I actually had spin training outside of simulators

I learned a great deal but it's been so long...I still practice them in a sim. Hopefully I'll never need to find out...keep the ball in the middle to many pilots are not entering there turns properly. Maybe that should be a priority..