Blackstone report data

[NJMac]

I posted on beechtalk since these are from my A36 under contract. 

Asking here since I recall serious wisdom amongst the team here.  It's a factory rebuilt IO550 with about 250 hrs since late 2018.  

[carusoam]

nice consistency in hours per oil change...

and hours per month...

and months per oil change...

What was the concentration in perceived chunks per filter?

What was higher flakes per filter or chunks per filter..?

 

For an example of what to look for out of an IO550...

Join Amelia over here...

Fortunately, this doesn’t happen often...

-a-

 

[NJMac]

Yes, I like the seller a lot as person.  Seems to care for his plane and use it regularly.  I certainly don't want to buy his engine troubles though.  Guys on BT asked for more data, attached.  

The service techs email regarding the oil filter is here:

All looks good on the oil filters. There was one magnetic particle and six no magnetic particles the size of a pencil point in the 11/11/2019 filter and in the 4/8/20 filter there was one no magnetic particle sliver sized but no other abnormal findings.

[carusoam]

Makes you wonder who took the sample, how...

Did they catch the first drop or the last drop of oil to exit the sump...

 

For oil samples...  we typically want to keep things done the same way eliminating as many variables as possible...

Looking for trends...

Graphing the lines here... they are all flat... with a sudden minuscule spike on the end... parts per thousand?

If you want to see those spikes go away...  fly some, get a new sample done...

 

If you want to reject this engine... Be looking for that next oil sample to show even higher numbers... if they are related to an engine going away... 

 

The purpose of oil analysis is to see trends...

A trend technically needs three points going the same direction... increasing, decreasing or flat...

This has a lot of flat... and one bothersome increase...

By the time you are seeing valuable data in oil analysis...  the bits and pieces are already showing up in the filter...

 

If you were seeing numbers doubling and tripling over time... you would be looking in the filter going where are my aluminum flakes...

 

When you silicon numbers are off the chart... where is that hole in my air intake hose...

 

This looks more like why did the mechanic take the first drop of oil coming out of the drain, to be a neatnik?

Tough time to get a bummer oil analysis result...

 

See how many hours are on the new oil... the analysis is normalized by hours and by the amount of replacement quarts...

 

Based on the way the current owner is taking care of things... I’d buy by what he is doing long before what the analysis is saying...

 

Put me in the category of a person that doesn’t use CamGuard, or doesn’t fly regularly enough to get valuable oil analysis data...

Compare to the other planes for sale... do they get any better or worse?

There are no easy answers in the buying a plane without a warranty game...  

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

Based on the way the current owner is taking care of things... I’d buy by what he is doing long before what the analysis is saying...

 

Thanks!  It's flying to PPI tomorrow.  I'll have another oil sample sent to Bkackstone while there and cut into the filter.  How easy is it to see the exhaust valve guides on this engine?  Would a borescope show enough to help answer where some of this extra metal is coming from? 

[EricJ]

Just now, NJMac said:

Thanks!  It's flying to PPI tomorrow.  I'll have another oil sample sent to Bkackstone while there and cut into the filter.  How easy is it to see the exhaust valve guides on this engine?  Would a borescope show enough to help answer where some of this extra metal is coming from? 

If there's not metal in the filter it may be unlikely that a visual inspection will show where it's coming from, but bore scoping is a good idea in a PPI, anyway, imho.   It's also apparently still at reasonably low levels.    Compression test might be revealing.   If nothing else, the increasing numbers can be used during price negotiations since it adds uncertainty to your future maintenance costs.

 

[NJMac]

Just now, EricJ said:

If there's not metal in the filter it may be unlikely that a visual inspection will show where it's coming from, but bore scoping is a good idea in a PPI, anyway, imho.   It's also apparently still at reasonably low levels.    Compression test might be revealing.   If nothing else, the increasing numbers can be used during price negotiations since it adds uncertainty to your future maintenance costs.

 

Is it odd we haven't nailed down a firm price before PPI?  It was pretty low key.  I told him I had funds and wanted his plane.  He said we'll work out pricing after PPI.  My wife and I talked, we don't mind paying for the PPI and walking if we must, but just seems odd not to have started the conversation yet. For all he knows I'll low ball him plus ding him on the PPI finding. 

[carusoam]

yes...

It is out of order to decide price after the mysteries are solved...

At the moment it passes the PPI in flying colors... what negotiations are left?

 

on the other hand... you don’t like the price... but you just spent a weeks wages on having a test done...

 

Doing things out of order can be hazardous to your wallet...

 

+1 compression tests...  know how flaky Continental compression numbers can be...

+1 on visual inspection of the cylinder surfaces and valves...  looking for the pizza and cross hatches...

 

I gave up buying a good Missile because of flaky compression numbers... I wasn’t ready yet...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Negotiate price based on everything being in AW condition... everything in the ad working as expected...

Everything in the pictures go with the plane... unless things are called out... specifically said they are not included...

sale contingent on the PPI...  all AW issues to be fixed by the seller...  

With room to agree that you may want them fixed your way, at your mechanic... where his mechanic estimates the cost of fixing it... (something like that...)

The objective is to come away with the plane in a whole condition...

 

If you really want to play hardball...

let him know his engine is fine... it’s the choice of plane that it’s mounted on is slowing the whole thing down... 

As a Mooney pilot, you are doing him a favor...  

PP thoughts only... following this part of the advice will save you a ton of money on the plane you didn’t buy...

[PilotX]

Oil samples are a data point. We had high metal readings at one point. But the compressions were still great they were no metal shavings in the oil filter and the engine an 0-540 at 2700 hours, the new owner is still flying it. He is actually flew down to Miami when I went to Fort Myers to pick up my Bravo. Good luck

[Davidv]

"manganese...a lot of people don't even know what that is"

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

"manganese...a lot of people don't even know what that is"

Our fuel tank sealant has manganese. It is the black activator.

I believe my tappet bodies were manganese phosphate coated when I assembled my engine.

Edited April 26, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[PT20J]

14 hours ago, NJMac said:

Is it odd we haven't nailed down a firm price before PPI?  It was pretty low key.  I told him I had funds and wanted his plane.  He said we'll work out pricing after PPI.  My wife and I talked, we don't mind paying for the PPI and walking if we must, but just seems odd not to have started the conversation yet. For all he knows I'll low ball him plus ding him on the PPI finding. 

When price negotiation is delayed, the potential gap in expectations between what the seller expects to receive and what the buyer wants to pay can increase. Also, it is in the seller’s interest to get you to spend money on the prepurchase before negotiating because you’ll then have skin in the game. I would negotiate a fair price based on assumed condition subject to adjustment after the inspection results are in.

Skip

[NJMac]

Just now, PT20J said:

When price negotiation is delayed, the potential gap in expectations between what the seller expects to receive and what the buyer wants to pay can increase. Also, it is in the seller’s interest to get you to spend money on the prepurchase before negotiating because you’ll then have skin in the game. I would negotiate a fair price based on assumed condition subject to adjustment after the inspection results are in.

Skip

I hadn't considered that until yesterday.  I brought it up today with the seller.  We'll see how it goes.  Ask was $279k.  I was hoping for $10 or so off. 

Talked with shop doing PPI, said sounds like one or more of the rings didn't seat based on oil usages.  He will start with a hot compression test tomorrow and borescope the cylinder walls to look for any tells. Ugh.  Kinda just want to push undo and keep my Mooney.  If only we could UPS a toddler, the E would fit the family. 

[Davidv]

38 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Our fuel tank sealant has manganese. It is the black activator.

I believe my tappet bodies were manganese phosphate coated when I assembled my engine.

Yes, I was just in the mood for a caddy shack joke.

[A64Pilot]

Not having a price offered and accepted before inspection is odd, normally the price may change some or not based on inspection findings, but I’d suspect by not having a price the seller may be counting on the buyer going in for sunk costs.

‘Look up sunk cost fallacy if not already well versed.

‘I maintained a fleet of Army helicopters all over the world for about 15 years. As the Army pretty much invented UOA or SOAP as they call it, everything was of course sampled, except for the engines. Army began oil analysis for its aircraft in 1961 I believe, so 60 years ago?

‘In those 15 years it’s  likely we went though a hundred gearboxes and APU’s, but not one single time was a component pulled based off of oil analysis, it was always due to other indicators, most often chip lights and glitter in the oil that showed up between samples, sample interval was 25 hours plus or minus 3 hours allowable tolerance.

We didn’t sample the GE-T701 engines because according to GE the filter was so fine that after a few passes. it was cleaner than it came out of the can, but I did have to change a few engines based on chip detector lights and metal in the sump screens.

Since I’m the that I am, and the fact that the oil lab was across the street I sampled a couple of engines and had the samples ran, and guess what? GE was right, there wasn’t much of anything in the oil. We changed engine oil at phase, which is a 250 hour interval, Phase inspection is very much like an Annual except it’s tripped by flight hours and not calendar time.

‘No component ever actually failed, we found them all prior to failure.

So what does the above sample say? I believe not much.

‘Of course I don’t believe the seller thinks anything bad with them either or he wouldn’t have presented them would he?

What I love is all the advice given to boat people of “Make sure you have an oil analysis done so you know the engines are good”

Most slap worn out motors with compression so low that they are hard to start will rerun a low metals oil analysis

Edited April 27, 2021 by A64Pilot

[KLRDMD]

23 hours ago, NJMac said:

Is it odd we haven't nailed down a firm price before PPI?  It was pretty low key.  I told him I had funds and wanted his plane.  He said we'll work out pricing after PPI.  My wife and I talked, we don't mind paying for the PPI and walking if we must, but just seems odd not to have started the conversation yet. For all he knows I'll low ball him plus ding him on the PPI finding. 

Things are done differently on BeechTalk. Many deals are a simple oral agreement and they go fine. Except for the time I sold an airplane there with Neal I don't think I've had anything in writing from my purchases and sales there. It is really a gentleman's place.

[NJMac]

37 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Things are done differently on BeechTalk. Many deals are a simple oral agreement and they go fine. Except for the time I sold an airplane there with Neal I don't think I've had anything in writing from my purchases and sales there. It is really a gentleman's place.

We agreed to a price today (+/-95% of asking)before any adjustments are offered for anything found at the PPI.  We'll see tomorrow, going to start scoping the engine tomorrow, kinda thinking one of us will have to do new cylinders based on findings. 

[A64Pilot]

I’d expect compressions to tell more than a scope, how have they been running?

95% of asking is strong, unless it’s a real cherry and very reasonably priced, I’d expect him to fix anything found, maybe split cylinders if the engine is running good though.

As a seller I’d balk at buying new cylinders if compressions are good, but gut says he’s a good guy or else he wouldn’t have shown you the oil analysis.

[Stetson20]

13 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Things are done differently on BeechTalk. Many deals are a simple oral agreement and they go fine. Except for the time I sold an airplane there with Neal I don't think I've had anything in writing from my purchases and sales there. It is really a gentleman's place.

With gentleman’s prices! 

[NJMac]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I’d expect compressions to tell more than a scope, how have they been running?

95% of asking is strong, unless it’s a real cherry and very reasonably priced, I’d expect him to fix anything found, maybe split cylinders if the engine is running good though.

As a seller I’d balk at buying new cylinders if compressions are good, but gut says he’s a good guy or else he wouldn’t have shown you the oil analysis.

4 cylinders are still running well at with compressions in the 70s. Number 2 and 4 are in the 60s. The mechanic said you can see blow by on all six cylinders and the borescope confirms the rings did not seat correctly. He's recommending machining and IRAN for all 6.  Probably will ask the seller to put that bill. We'll see how he responds.

Yes value is subjective. However I could put TKS and new paint on the plane and still be at the same price as where I started with the Cirrus 10 weeks ago. At that point, this plane would be as good as any new plane beach shipped last year. Edit- and 1500 lbs usable if I add TKS.

[A64Pilot]

What’s the altitude where you livenad or where this airplane is located?

Does it have a turbo? I ask as I have seen issues with getting a NA engine to seat rings if the airport is at high altitude.

 

[NJMac]

48 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

What’s the altitude where you livenad or where this airplane is located?

Does it have a turbo? I ask as I have seen issues with getting a NA engine to seat rings if the airport is at high altitude.

 

His airport is ~700 msl.  It's NA.