M20C has icing emergency

[Ibra]

Maybe not the case for powerful turbos? but climb on 200hp non-turbo, one wil tend to lose rate of climb way before his windshield gets scrambled, although forward view is irrelevant inside clouds, on descent for landing, I agree windshield may get full before the wings give up, but to lose aerodynamics on descent, one has to be bloody heavy that day !

I fly non-FIKI M20J, the strategy is to gain height & speed way before collecting ice and punch through up in one or two steps to be on top at 10kft in the sun, if not it's back low down in the dark or go back home, always worth a try as long as you set teh timer limit, actually, it's the same plan when flying FIKI aircraft (non-turbo SR22 FIKI & DA42 FIKI), they just "give more time" but also run out of climb rate, IMHO the best defense against ice is less wing protection in cruise but powerful engine to climb: good hot prop in front of 310hp turbo or 700hp turbine that show a consistent +1.5kfpm climb and maybe the windshield heater for heavy landing, then icing is matter of 5 minutes up/down 

The other problem with icing is not much aircraft capabilities (altough we talk about this all the day) but terrain & traffic constraints, I personally, have zero problem flying non-FIKI with mix of VFR and off-airway IFR (legal in UK and land is flatish) but inside busy ATC system I desperatly need FIKI capability (one can't just whine anytime in clouds or promptly ask "I will need an emergency change of vertical/lateral flight path untill further notice"), the beginner mistake is to stay hours watching it or not say anything when sent to the wrong spots untill one runs out of power, speed, height options (it's not just M20C, M20J...it happenned to fully equipped ATR, B737, TBM... all went down spending 30min holding at slow speeds or 15min cruise in some nasty levels/spots)

Edited April 20, 2021 by Ibra

[Yetti]

22 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The thing that has amazed me is how many people set up camera’s and video themselves going through life.

‘Why for example would anyone set up the go-pro and video a cross country flight? But seemingly many do.

But just as confusing to me is that they will post that on You tube or wherever for the world to see.

Someone posted a video of people in a Cessna 210 who crashed, to me that whole video was bizarre

 

The worst ones are the whole fight where the camera is pointed at the pilot.   Anyways I just video the take offs and landings.  I say there is a lot of piloting done the last 200 feet above the ground.  the rest meh.

[Jim Peace]

On 4/17/2021 at 12:31 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

 I’m glad his carb heat was working. Some don’t....

If you have had your carb heat worked on by a certain MSC in central NJ you may have even had the system intentionally disabled.  

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

If you have had your carb heat worked on by a certain MSC in central NJ you may have even had the system intentionally disabled.  

I've worked on two airplanes in the last year where the carb heat was so badly mis-rigged that they wouldn't do jack for a carb ice emergency. In both instances the owner was amazed at the effect it had after I fixed it. They said on run up they just thought it wasn't supposed to do much.

[A64Pilot]

45 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

If you have had your carb heat worked on by a certain MSC in central NJ you may have even had the system intentionally disabled.  

 

16 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I've worked on two airplanes in the last year where the carb heat was so badly mis-rigged that they wouldn't do jack for a carb ice emergency. In both instances the owner was amazed at the effect it had after I fixed it. They said on run up they just thought it wasn't supposed to do much.

I’m not disbelieving you guys, but two questions, first carb heat is the simplest thing to rig, nothings easier how could you possibly mess that up?

Secondly, why would anyone intentionally disable carb heat? Then how do you stay in business doing that, surely the first off airport landing has you being sued, and there is no way you could defend that, I’m not believing Mooney published anything saying carb heat is optional.

‘Then why disable it? there is absolutely nothing to be gained from doing so, and a whole lot to lose.

Back in the day when airplanes with C-85’s etc were used for training and rental, there were a great many mixture controls disabled and I can understand that, but carb heat?

[Andy95W]

26 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

 

I’m not disbelieving you guys, but two questions, first carb heat is the simplest thing to rig, nothings easier how could you possibly mess that up?

The M20C carb heat is not as simple as a C-152/172, but some shops think it is.  That’s where the trouble starts.

The carburetor heat on my current M20C was badly mis-rigged when I did the prepurchase inspection on it.  I fixed it even though I wasn’t sure I was going to buy the airplane.  The owner immediately noticed the improvement in function and engine performance and couldn’t believe his shop (not an MSC) could “fix” the airplane that badly.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I've worked on two airplanes in the last year where the carb heat was so badly mis-rigged that they wouldn't do jack for a carb ice emergency. In both instances the owner was amazed at the effect it had after I fixed it. They said on run up they just thought it wasn't supposed to do much.

My Owners Manual days to check carb heat operation just after engine start, not at run up! I bet the effect there us quite dramatic. 

[hbpil]

Not judging, I just want to learn a few things from this. So it was VFR and encountered icing ? 

I am personally nervous to fly actual single engine IFR, if I don't have at least 1000ft ceiling. Flying over mountains IMC in single engine is a big no for me.

 

Again...I don't want to sound judgmental, because I certainly don't have all the info.

Glad that it turned out ok.

 

[DXB]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

 

I’m not disbelieving you guys, but two questions, first carb heat is the simplest thing to rig, nothings easier how could you possibly mess that up?

Secondly, why would anyone intentionally disable carb heat? Then how do you stay in business doing that, surely the first off airport landing has you being sued, and there is no way you could defend that, I’m not believing Mooney published anything saying carb heat is optional.

‘Then why disable it? there is absolutely nothing to be gained from doing so, and a whole lot to lose.

Back in the day when airplanes with C-85’s etc were used for training and rental, there were a great many mixture controls disabled and I can understand that, but carb heat?

There were 3 generations of carb heat design for the carb'd short bodies - the earliest one was simple, but there was no way for heat to get out of the muffler shroud when carb and/or cabin heat not in use, thus decreasing part longevity.  Around '63, there was a butterfly bypass valve installed to dump the hot air overboard with carb heat off. It was installed in the airbox and operated by the identical cable as the flapper valve that turns carb heat on/off - this was a tricky mechanism that's hard to keep working right. A once reputable MSC removed the valve entirely and left the bypass open on @Jim Peace 's bird in a lazy and boneheaded move and then refused to fess up that they did anything wrong.  Starting with my '68 model, the butterfly valve was changed to a simpler and more reliable mechanism to dump hot air overboard via the cabin heat control at the firewall - however even that was in poor repair when I bought my plane, though has been much easier to maintain once it got fixed.  There was once a great article by Don Maxwell on the 3 carb heat systems - oddly I don't see it anymore online - wish I'd downloaded and kept it.

Edited April 20, 2021 by DXB

[A64Pilot]

40 minutes ago, hbpil said:

 I am personally nervous to fly actual single engine IFR, if I don't have at least 1000ft ceiling. Flying over mountains IMC in single engine is a big no for me.

 

 

 

I can give you several links, but they are easy to look up, the fact is that a twin is less safe than a single in the event of an engine failure, of course any twin owner will vehemently disagree.

I do think you have a point on the low ceiling, I have pictures somewhere of a C-210 down across the street from my house, they broke a crankshaft IFR with a low ceiling, so he had seconds to pick a landing spot once they broke out, he found a field but the flaps were still up so you could tell he didn’t have much time, they didn’t walk away, but they weren’t seriously injured I don think, likely would have likely been a different outcome if he broke out with only woods. in sight.

My personal minimum is that I won’t leave IFR with weather less then than the approach back into the airport I left from.

[Ibra]

Just now, hbpil said:

Flying over mountains IMC in single engine is a big no for me.

One has also need to consider perf & ceiling of iced twin OEI, anything with MSA above 10kft and IMC needs good planning and allow for turn back or divert/landout option (you have a good point on 1000ft ceiling or more if icing + ceiling are big concerns, after all you will be down sooner or later), it's not like a walk in the park in twins....

Edited April 20, 2021 by Ibra

[gsxrpilot]

We logged just a bit of IFR/IMC over the mountains on Saturday in my single engine Mooney 

To be sure, it was just a few minutes, I wanted to cross at FL180 and that required the IFR clearance, and then we were IMC for a couple of minutes on the descent but broke out with about 5000 ft ceilings.

[A64Pilot]

it’s not just IFR, one pic is VFR over glaciers in the Rockies in the NWT, there just isn’t a place to land in some situations.

‘Oh, and I found the pic of the C-210 that was across the street when we came home from Church

Edited April 20, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

NTSB accident report for the C-210, broke out at 300 AGL.

http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AccidentDetailPage

sorry link doesn’t work, screen shot of the report

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Mufflerbearing]

FIKI Flight In Known Icing.  While working on my IFR, I asked specifically about icing and icing issues of my DPE.  For a definition of known icing, a pilot must know there is icing.  This is by either experiencing it or by a pirep.  Other than that, it is speculative or forecast, hence pilots sometimes get themselves into potential problematic situations.  There is a difference between being smart and being legal. 

Having FIKI on my plane was a must on my list of must haves when I was looking to purchase a plane.  I have used it and love having it.  Having safety equipment is important but making sure that safety equipment is working properly is equally important.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

There were 3 generations of carb heat design for the carb'd short bodies - the earliest one was simple, but there was no way for heat to get out of the muffler shroud when carb and/or cabin heat not in use, thus decreasing part longevity.  Around '63, there was a butterfly bypass valve installed to dump the hot air overboard with carb heat off. It was installed in the airbox and operated by the identical cable as the flapper valve that turns carb heat on/off - this was a tricky mechanism that's hard to keep working right. A once reputable MSC removed the valve entirely and left the bypass open on @Jim Peace 's bird in a lazy and boneheaded move and then refused to fess up that they did anything wrong.  Starting with my '68 model, the butterfly valve was changed to a simpler and more reliable mechanism to dump hot air overboard via the cabin heat control at the firewall - however even that was in poor repair when I bought my plane, though has been much easier to maintain once it got fixed.  There was once a great article by Don Maxwell on the 3 carb heat systems - oddly I don't see it anymore online - wish I'd downloaded and kept it.

I think this is the one you are looking for. I have a tendency to download a lot of articles, you never know when they will disappear.

CARB HEAT CARE.pdf

[Patrick Horan]

18 hours ago, carusoam said:

Hey Patrick!

Thanks for checking in, and sharing some of the details...

Got time for questions?

Was the pic with ice from this event..?  Or did somebody add a similar pic for a visual aid?

If you are putting a presentation together... I might know a great place to share it...  @mike_elliott

Ice is a tricky phenomenon... 

Best regards,

-a-

Hello! While the color scheme looks like my plane. I cant be for certain if that is my plane exactly. One i question on where he even got the photo from. Neither my friends or I took pictures of my plane (that close) and I didnt see anyone else come up and take pics of my plane.