Newbie questions

[Gubni]

New guy alert asking dumb questions, lol. I'm a student pilot with about 20 hours. I want to buy a Mooney when I get my PPL. I found one super cheap and my cfi is a A&P and is retired looking for a project. I'd prefer to start with a hull and know what I have than to buy one ready to go. It's a 1967 M20F that had it's last annual in 2005. It's been hangared the last 24 years. It was last flown in 2011. Since then it's been started annually and hand proped monthly although it will not start now. In 2011 winds blew it to the back of the hangar and dented the flaps. New flaps are included along with new tires and a new battery. He said it needs a vacuum pump and he has one for it. My CFI knows a IA that can ferry it for us. My question is do we need to install the vacuum pump to ferry it about 235 miles? 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Gubni

[Jerry 5TJ]

All you need is a ferry permit, but it may be hard to get from the FSDO. 

I suggest you remove the wing and truck the project to your repair shop.  
 

[MIm20c]

Proceed cautiously and be prepared to spend some time and money to make it just how you want and airworthy/safe. Good luck with your PPL!

[cbarry]

Welcome aboard and congratulations on your possible new project.  As a student pilot (by the way, we’re all still students no matter the accumulated hours), please refer to the  minimum equipment list (not counting engine equipment) for VFR flight.  It should say something like: an airspeed indicator, an altimeter and a magnetic compass.  Then check your aircraft systems chapter in your ppl study guide and you’ll notice the instruments running off of vacuum and those that don’t.  However, once this is determined, the question becomes:  “If you have access to a new vacuum pump, then why not just go ahead and install it before the ferry flight?  
 

IMO, setting a pattern of taking off in an aircraft with known deficiencies is not a good pattern to start out with—ferry flight or not. If it were me, I’d want whatever needs to be done to bring this aircraft up to operational condition before the ferry flight.  The extra time and money spent before the flight should be a wise investment.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by cbarry

[Gubni]

26 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

All you need is a ferry permit, but it may be hard to get from the FSDO. 

I suggest you remove the wing and truck the project to your repair shop.  
 

I have a 32' trailer so I can do that also. What's involved in removing the wing?

[Jerry 5TJ]

14 minutes ago, Gubni said:

What's involved in removing the wing?

The wing is one assembly tip to tip. I hear that a couple of people can disconnect everything and unbolt it in a day or less.  
Some Mooney shops have a trailer and are experienced in such “retrievals” and can advise you or assist. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Gubni said:

I'm a student pilot with about 20 hours. I want to buy a Mooney when I get my PPL. I found one super cheap

Now if you said, "I'm a student working on my A&P/IA, and I would like to have my own airframe and power plant to strip down and get into every detail."  Then this would make sense. But if you're an aspiring pilot looking for an airplane to FLY? This is not the one. You'll have your ATP before that plane is ready to fly. And you'll have spent enough money on it to have owned two Mooneys that are flying today.

Those who have been around here a while know that I have a list of people who have tried to do something similar. It's never worked out. Some of them are flying their Mooneys and now have $80K invested in a $40K airplane. Others never did get them flying, gave up after spending more on the repairs than to buy the plane, and then scrapped the project. 

If you aspire to be an A&P, then get yourself a project. If you aspire to be a Pilot, get an airplane that flies.

[ArtVandelay]

I found one super cheap...

An expensive plane can start out as super cheap.

I would assume an overhaul is necessary.

At least verify it’s corrosion free.

Unless you have $30,000 in the bank, I would pass.

[steingar]

Says me don't do it unless you're an A&P or are really friendly with one.  You can go upside down on a project like this very easily.  Indeed people frequently do.  There is a long thread from a Mooneyspacer who got a project Mooney probably in better shape than the one you are contemplating. I think it was two years of fairly constant effort before that Mooney flew.

Repeat after me:  There are no bargains in aviation.  There are no bargains in aviation.  There are no bargains in aviation.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Ferrying a plane to a maintenance facility is specifically called out in the regulations. I have done that twice in the last 6 months. You will need an.IA (because they know the folks at the FSDO) to make a log entry certifying that the plane is “airworthy for flight”. Ferrying it with a dead vacuum pump shouldn’t be a problem.

[carusoam]

Gubni,

You are describing being new as a pilot...

Discussing rebuilding significant parts of a plane...

You might want to discuss your mechanical skills...

Like you are a mechanic and you rebuild cars for fun...  for a living....

 

There are rules and regulations that are helpful to know about... Much of the work you have described requires aircraft mechanics to work on...

If you are thinking buying a project is a low cost method of entry into aviation... open both eyes...

The lowest cost method...is to find one flying already...

If cost isn’t your driving force... go for it!

Just remember, once you spent all the money... it doesn’t mean you have a plane that will command top dollar...  once you remove a wing for some reason... it often goes to the bottom of the list for some people...

Of course... it depends on the number of buyers relative to the number of sellers....

Take a look at what is involved with replacing and what it costs to replace the damaged parts you already are aware of...

hiring people gets expensive... 

See how long this is going to take... 

Very few engines survive not flying regularly for years... no matter how well they get described as being run...

Compare what you have to other planes...

Compare how much free time you have... rebuilding a plane can be a full time job for a while...

Best regards,

-a-

[Gubni]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Gubni,

You are describing being new as a pilot...

Discussing rebuilding significant parts of a plane...

You might want to discuss your mechanical skills...

Like you are a mechanic and you rebuild cars for fun...  for a living....

 

There are rules and regulations that are helpful to know about... Much of the work you have described requires aircraft mechanics to work on...

If you are thinking buying a project is a low cost method of entry into aviation... open both eyes...

The lowest cost method...is to find one flying already...

If cost isn’t your driving force... go for it!

Just remember, once you spent all the money... it doesn’t mean you have a plane that will command top dollar...  once you remove a wing for some reason... it often goes to the bottom of the list for some people...

Of course... it depends on the number of buyers relative to the number of sellers....

Take a look at what is involved with replacing and what it costs to replace the damaged parts you already are aware of...

hiring people gets expensive... 

See how long this is going to take... 

Very few engines survive not flying regularly for years... no matter how well they get described as being run...

Compare what you have to other planes...

Compare how much free time you have... rebuilding a plane can be a full time job for a while...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the reply. Yes I build cars for a hobby. Look up rock bouncer on youtube, lol. Money is not a concern and I don't care about resale value. I want to know my plane and if I'm going to have $100k in a good plane might as well be one that I built. My CFI says I can do the work and he will supervise and he has a friend that is an IA that will sign off on the basics.

[Rwsavory]

I’m looking forward to seeing the finished product in about 7 years.  Keep us posted.
 

But seriously, if money is no concern and you want to build a plane, buy an RV kit.  

[mike_elliott]

If you have about 4000 hrs to devote to the project, and you can afford to spend upwards of 150K or more on an F model, you can make this a like new plane, right John Breda?

The skillsets needed to build an off roader will somewhat transfer, but you would be better prepped if you build a couple of indy cars first. A real danger is the tendency of hard pointing and transferring the role of failure to  something not designed to be the new failure point. If a stove bolt was certified, a grade 8 hex head cap screw wont do. In your favor is a salty CFI/A$P who is willing to help you spend a lot of your money.

Go for it if you really understand the liability of doing something the FAA charges all A&P's with having prior task experience before allowing them to sign off task completion and knowing the potential downsides, economical and social. All said, I admire your ambition and know it can be a fun thing properly framed

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Gubni said:

Thanks for the reply. Yes I build cars for a hobby. Look up rock bouncer on youtube, lol. Money is not a concern and I don't care about resale value. I want to know my plane and if I'm going to have $100k in a good plane might as well be one that I built. My CFI says I can do the work and he will supervise and he has a friend that is an IA that will sign off on the basics.

So build an RV10. When you're finished you'll have $150K invested in a $200K airplane. And you get to be the boss of the build. You obviously know your way around a tool box. So build something where you're in charge and can make the critical decisions yourself. And anytime you need some part or have a question, you get Van's on the phone immediately and overnight shipping of parts.

Or go ahead with the Mooney re-build. It will take much longer as you'll be having to wait for someone else to inspect and sign off everything you do. There also is almost non-existent support from the factory for the parts you'll need. I just ordered a part from the factory and they said 6 weeks... from the time they start work on it which is undetermined. And in the end you'll have $150K invested in a $40K airplane.

Like I've said, I have a list of guys who have tried to do this... 

[mike_elliott]

Another interesting option is Dark Aero. Not yet available as a kit, but will be. The engineering is solid.

[cwaters]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Another interesting option is Dark Aero. Not yet available as a kit, but will be. The engineering is solid.

I've been watching these guys YT channel as they progress and am very excited for when this becomes fully available. The specs they are putting out are impressive. 

[steingar]

@gsxrpilot has the right of it.  There are a bunch of really good kit airplanes out there.  The RVs are the king of the hill right now, the 10 is their 4 place version.  7s and 8s are the two place versions, 7 is side by side, 8 is tandem.  Fast, fully aerobatic, they're awesome airplanes and fun to fly.  And did we mention that if you build one you can fix it and do all the annual inspections yourself?  

Your CFI can't supervise diddly if he isn't an A&P.  And refurbishing a certificated aircraft really is a labor of love.  I can't imagine sourcing parts, and yes, you'll be waiting on that IA for everything.  And what happens when your pet IA retires/moves away/dies in a stamp collecting accident/develops a nasty meth habit?

I love my Mooney, but I wouldn't want to try and rebuild one.

[David Lloyd]

And don't forget the latest, RV14, like the RV7 only larger, Bubba 7.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, David Lloyd said:

And don't forget the latest, RV14, like the RV7 only larger, Bubba 7.

I'd like a 14...

[Rusty Pilot]

Someone had a nice RV6 nearly complete for sale including engine for $53K.

 

[Gubni]

In my past I have never built a rock bouncer from scratch. I buy a basket case and work out the problems. I appreciate all the advice. I'm happy to see such an interest. I will start a thread on it. I used to do that with my off-road toys.

[carusoam]

Gub,

Look for the invite I sent you...

It is another Mooney about to hit the for sale lot...

It too hasn’t seen a lot of action... but you can compare both opportunities to each other...

This one has an owner that is available to ask questions to....

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

14 hours ago, Gubni said:

In my past I have never built a rock bouncer from scratch. I buy a basket case and work out the problems. I appreciate all the advice. I'm happy to see such an interest. I will start a thread on it. I used to do that with my off-road toys.

The difference is for your rock bouncer (whatever that is) you can just go to the autoparts store and get whatever you want to bolt onto it. For the airplane you can only use certificated airplane parts, they have to be the right ones, and they're often in short supply.  I recall another poster who had the same plan, said "I have a metal brake, how hard can it be?".  I think he gave up when he had some trouble sourcing an engine.

You can buy an older experimental and refurbish it if that's your thing.  There are a lot of them out there, they're often quite inexpensive, and a lot of them are downright amazing.  But once you get into certification the complications go way, way up.  A Mooney has over 7000 parts, and each and every one has to be the correct one.  Even the nuts and bolts have to be airplane parts.  All the regulation can really suck the joy out of a rebuild fast.

[N201MKTurbo]

I don’t know why everybody is so down on this guy. If he wants a project plane, let him have one. If he turns it into a piece of junk, that is his problem. If he makes a show piece out of it, well good for him. Let’s do what we can to steer him in the right direction.